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ktinkel
07-10-2005, 04:04 PM
My husband and I are having a fierce argument. What day does the week begin?

Sunday?

Monday?

Some other day?

Help!

Susie
07-10-2005, 04:26 PM
My husband and I are having a fierce argument. What day does the week begin?

Sunday?

Monday

I say Monday, since Sunday is at the end of the weekend, and since Monday is the beginning of the work week. JMHO

annc
07-10-2005, 05:58 PM
Sunday here, although you can get calendars now that start with Monday, but it always looks strange.

Shane Stanley
07-10-2005, 07:04 PM
My husband and I are having a fierce argument. What day does the week begin?

I once did some work for a company that produces planners and diaries. They said there was an ISO standard that declared Monday the first day of the week.

Many places, though, seem to think it's Sunday. And we have the curiosity of the week-to-view planner, in many places showing months with weeks beginning on Sundays and weeks themselves beginning on Mondays.

Shane

djb
07-10-2005, 07:29 PM
If you read the Old Testament and believe/agree the Sabbath ends the week, then the week begins on Sunday. In the context of the OT, the Sabbath is Saturday.

QED

Franca
07-10-2005, 11:04 PM
I always think of Sunday as the first day of the week, for a lot of reasons. As a child that's the order I learned the days of the week - Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, etc. Monthly calendars show Sunday as the first day of the week. And there may be a long-buried Biblical element to it as well, brought on by close proximity to priests and nuns in my early school years. But I don't recall ever reading anywhere what the "official" first day of the week is.

Mike
07-10-2005, 11:53 PM
My husband and I are having a fierce argument. What day does the week begin?


Depends on which day I get out of bed.

Steve Rindsberg
07-11-2005, 10:08 AM
And on the seventh day ....

So it depends on your faith?

Franca
07-11-2005, 10:15 AM
Well, I was intrigued by the question and did a bit of research:

Either (http://web.ask.com/fr?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.madsci.org%2Fposts%2Farchive s%2Fsep99%2F938455019.Sh.r.html&s=a&bu=http%3A%2F%2Fweb.ask.com%2Fweb%3Fq%3Dwhich%2Bis %2Bfirst%2Bday%2Bof%2Bweek%2B-%2BSunday%2Bor%2BMonday%253F%26o%3D10234%26page%3D 1&q=which+is+first+day+of+week+-+Sunday+or+Monday%3F&o=10234&qt=0&ma=Re%3A%20Is%20Sunday%20or%20Monday%20the%20first %20day%20of%20the%20week%3F&mt=Re%3A%20Is%20Sunday%20or%20Monday%20the%20first %20day%20of%20the%20week%3F&mb=)

Or (http://web.ask.com/fr?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cjvlang.com%2FDow%2FSunMon.h tml&s=a&bu=http%3A%2F%2Fweb.ask.com%2Fweb%3Fq%3Dwhich%2Bis %2Bfirst%2Bday%2Bof%2Bweek%2B-%2BSunday%2Bor%2BMonday%253F%26o%3D10234%26page%3D 1&q=which+is+first+day+of+week+-+Sunday+or+Monday%3F&o=10234&qt=0&ma=A%20note%20on%20the%20status%20of%20Sunday%20an d%20Monday%20as%20rivals%20for%20first%20day%20of% 20the%20week.%20An%20aside%20to%20the%20%27Chinese %2C%20Japanese%2C%20and%20Vietnamese%20Days%20of%2 0the%20Week%27&mt=Sunday%20or%20Monday%3F&mb=)

More (http://web.ask.com/web?q=which+is+first+day+of+week+-+Sunday+or+Monday%3F&qsrc=0&o=0)

I think you may have to concede you're both right. OK, Kathleen, time to tell us which of you says what. <vbg>

annc
07-11-2005, 12:13 PM
I once did some work for a company that produces planners and diaries. They said there was an ISO standard that declared Monday the first day of the week. I looked that up, and found it to be ISO 8601 (http://www.iso.org/iso/en/prods-services/popstds/datesandtime.html). And your client was right.

Michael Rowley
07-11-2005, 02:25 PM
Steve:

So it depends on your faith

It does, but the Hebraic tradition, continued by Christians, is that the Sabbath (Saturday) is the seventh day of the week. The only thing is, for the Jews the day doesn't begin at midnight. The widespread adoption of Monday as the first day of the working week is merely for convenience.

Mervyn Long
07-11-2005, 05:53 PM
Mondays child is fair of face,
Tuesdays child is full of grace,
Wednesdays child is full of woe,
Thursdays child has far to go,
Fridays child is loving and giving,
Saturdays child works hard for his living,
And the child that is born on the Sabbath day
Is bonny and blithe, and good and gay.

I mean that's about as definitive as one can get isn't it? <g>

Btw, I'm a Friday's Child. Which one are you, everyone?

Mervyn

Franca
07-11-2005, 07:00 PM
I'm a Tuesday's child - seemed appropriate when I was six and thought maybe I'd grow up to be a nun. That idea didn't last long. ;)

Mike
07-11-2005, 11:38 PM
Well I appeared on a Thursday. Not sure where I'm going though.

ktinkel
07-12-2005, 07:21 AM
I think you may have to concede you're both right. OK, Kathleen, time to tell us which of you says what. <vbg>I wouldn’t go that far! In almost 40 years as a graphic designer I have designed or produced a lot of calendars, for one use or another, and for a monthly calendar I cannot remember ever beginning the week on any day but Sunday. It’s not that I held some radical agenda — it was never even a question.

Diary books often begin the week with Monday (and even have the two weekend days in one box), I suppose because they are used primarily for business appointments.

European calendars sometimes begin on Monday, possibly because of the ISO standard, but we in the U.S. don’t pay much attention to international standards. (If we did, we would be buying liters [or litres] of gasoline and measuring in meters [metres] instead of yards.)

Now how this came to be I do not know, although your research makes a pretty good case for an ancient source (well, Old Testament ancient, anyway).

But speaking as a designer who sometimes needed to abbreviate the days of the week with just single letters, I would really, really hate to be stuck with S S at the end!

Using S M T W T F S for the calendar wouldn’t be the first convention to arise for typographic rather than substantive reasons. (I think typography is the reason we tuck commas and periods inside closing quotes whether it makes logical sense or not, for example.)

Soooo — Jack can cling to his odd notion that weeks begin on Monday. I will just excuse him as having been brain-washed by decades of the old M–F 9–5!

Michael Rowley
07-12-2005, 07:44 AM
KT:

I think typography is the reason we tuck commas and periods inside closing quotes

The reasoning behind the general European tendency not to include commas etc. inside the closing quotation mark is also based on typography: '. . . quotation,' leaves an ugly gap after the 'n' (filled only by the unobtrusive comma).

Possibly the US procedure is adopted because it needs less thought: the British style, which often requires judgement in its application, I find slightly wearing!

ktinkel
07-12-2005, 07:50 AM
I'm a Tuesday's child - seemed appropriate when I was six and thought maybe I'd grow up to be a nun. That idea didn't last long. ;)Me too. Or I think I am, anyway — had to look it up on the web, and finally found a set of tables and an easy method, and then I simply trusted it.

No fantasies about being a nun, though (that I remember).

JABTE05
07-12-2005, 09:59 AM
I'm gonna go with Sunday as the first day. That's what I learned in elementary school, and it had no religious affiliation.

ktinkel
07-12-2005, 11:10 AM
I'm gonna go with Sunday as the first day. That's what I learned in elementary school, and it had no religious affiliation.Me, too. I suspect the religious connection is really old — back when only the church and its leaders were literate enough to make (or need) a calendar in the first place!

annc
07-12-2005, 12:36 PM
I wouldn’t go that far! In almost 40 years as a graphic designer I have designed or produced a lot of calendars, for one use or another, and for a monthly calendar I cannot remember ever beginning the week on any day but Sunday. It’s not that I held some radical agenda — it was never even a question.So you don't care about ISO 8601 (http://www.iso.org/iso/en/prods-services/popstds/datesandtime.html)?

annc
07-12-2005, 12:40 PM
Fridays child is loving and givingHmm, they got that one wrong with me!

Mervyn Long
07-12-2005, 02:47 PM
Well I appeared on a Thursday. Not sure where I'm going though.
Back about the time of the Ark I had a boat on the Thames which I named 'Thursday's Child'. Seemed like a good idea at the time <g>

Mervyn

Michael Rowley
07-12-2005, 03:21 PM
Ann:

Tuesdays child is full of grace [Anon., cited by M. Long]

That should apply to me. Would I fall from grace if I complained about the absence of an apostrophe from Tuesdays?

Shane Stanley
07-12-2005, 03:51 PM
European calendars sometimes begin on Monday, possibly because of the ISO standard, but we in the U.S. don’t pay much attention to international standards.

But you're original question was what is the first day of the week, no what is the first day of the week in the US.

I do hope you told Jack that standards are on his side...

Shane

Franca
07-12-2005, 09:15 PM
Soooo — Jack can cling to his odd notion that weeks begin on Monday. I will just excuse him as having been brain-washed by decades of the old M–F 9–5!LOL! Well, I'm with you. ;) S M T W T F S it is. Wouldn't look right any other way to me!

Franca
07-12-2005, 10:11 PM
Hmm, they got that one wrong with me!LOL!

Mike
07-12-2005, 11:53 PM
the British style, which often requires judgement in its application, I find slightly wearing!

That's why we have copy editors!

Mike
07-12-2005, 11:55 PM
Back about the time of the Ark I had a boat on the Thames which I named 'Thursday's Child'. Seemed like a good idea at the time <g>

Mervyn

I guess you ended up going further than the boat. <g>

annc
07-13-2005, 12:02 AM
LOL!;-)

ktinkel
07-13-2005, 05:27 AM
So you don't care about ISO 8601 (http://www.iso.org/iso/en/prods-services/popstds/datesandtime.html)?Until this discussion I didn’t know ISO 8601 even existed! <g> Ignorance, I guess, really is bliss.

ktinkel
07-13-2005, 05:29 AM
I do hope you told Jack that standards are on his side...Sort of. In a footnote-y sort of way.

:-)

annc
07-13-2005, 11:24 AM
Until this discussion I didn’t know ISO 8601 even existed! <g> Ignorance, I guess, really is bliss.Me neither. But once Shane mentioned it, I had to look it up.

Steve Rindsberg
07-13-2005, 11:36 AM
I don't quite follow you, Michael. Most Christian sects I know of consider Sunday to be the Sabbath (the seventh day) which would make Monday the first.

Ah .. but this, from Franca's link, either clarifies or muddies things:

"But (as Christians believe) Christ was raised on the first day of the week (Matthew 28:1; Mark 16:1-2; Luke 24:1; John 20:1), after the Sabbath was over. Because of this, Christians traditionally have their primary worship events on Sunday, and the Mosaic sabbatarian regulations were gradually transferred to Sunday among the vast majority of Christians."

And here I thought we were keeping the Sabbath by going to church.

There's such comfort to be found in agnosticism.

Michael Rowley
07-13-2005, 02:56 PM
Steve:

the Mosaic sabbatarian regulations were gradually transferred to Sunday among the vast majority of Christians

The Catholic Church calls Saturday (in Latin) 'the Sabbath', and Sunday, 'the Lord's Day', but it's quite common to call Sunday 'the sabbath day'.

John Spragens
07-13-2005, 04:27 PM
And here I thought you had subs.

John Spragens
07-13-2005, 04:31 PM
Some languages are explicit about which day comes first in the week. In Vietnamese, for example, the names of the days are numbers. And in Vietnamese, Sunday is the first.

Don't know how far back that naming convention goes, though.

Michael Rowley
07-13-2005, 04:47 PM
John:

And here I thought you had subs

All the same thing, surely. Desk editor, copy editor, sub-editor: they're all to pick up our mistyping, clean up the English, and sort out the the typography where needed. In newspaper editing, they're the people that devise those dreaded punning headlines too—or is that only in England?

donmcc
07-13-2005, 09:09 PM
In North Amercia the heads are written by the editors, or they were a few years back when I was in the business. Although a reporter might pop a title on a piece if he had a good idea, but the editor would have to make it fit the space, so it might get used, or not.

The headline (there is only one in a newspaper) is generally written by committee in all but the smallest papers.

Don McCahill

ElyseC
07-14-2005, 06:41 AM
The headline (there is only one in a newspaper) is generally written by committee in all but the smallest papers.Well, I'll be darned. Just learned something new, er, old, er, you know what I mean. Logical, considering the term, but I never thought about it before. Now I get to annoy all my friends and family by correcting them! <evil g>

Hm. OK, then what is the correct term for the titles of the other articles in a newspaper? To properly annoy my family and friends I better have the answer to that or they'll jeer me out of the room. <g>

Michael Rowley
07-14-2005, 07:48 AM
Don:

In North America the heads are written by the editors

I presume you mean by 'editors' are what we term the sub-editors (usually); I believe 'desk editors' would be the term in the USA, but I don't know what they're called in Ontario.

I did mean the 'heads', but I had always assumed that that was short for 'headlines': now I know better, but I'm no wiser about 'heads'. I'm aware though that reporters don't write either headlines or 'heads' though.

Steve Rindsberg
07-14-2005, 12:56 PM
Interesting, very interesting. Having been raised Protesemicatholanglican ... what we'd call Episcopalean ... nobody ever drew that distinction.

Michael Rowley
07-14-2005, 02:32 PM
Steve:

nobody ever drew that distinction

I've just looked up the Web site of the Lord's Day Observance Society. I see it refers to Sunday as 'the Christian sabbath' (and incidentally, says it's the 'first day of the week'). The LDOS is an Anglican foundation, started by the [Anglican] Bishop of London in 1831. 'Sabbath' means (roughly) 'rest day', so even an Episcopalean can talk about 'the sabbath' or 'the Lord's day' with perfect propriety, without reference to a mythical Anglo-Saxon deity.

Steve Rindsberg
07-15-2005, 08:10 PM
"mythical Anglo-Saxon deity"

And interestingly, in Japanese, Sunday is nichyobi, literally "sun day".
But that may be a literal back-translation from English or some other western language. ISTR the week being five days in older calendars but can't find anything on that at the moment.

This has some nice additions to the discussion:
http://www.encyclopedia-online.info/Sunday

Michael Rowley
07-16-2005, 07:25 AM
Steve:

'And interestingly, in Japanese, Sunday is nichyobi, literally "sun day". '

I rather regret having called Sunday a day named after an Anglosaxon deity, because Sun was worshipped by numerous peoples, including Egyptians, Persians, Greeks, and Romans; and I think the Japanese too.

Your link speaks of Catholics imitating Protestants in their use of 'the sabbath' for Sunday, but I think it is correct to say that Sunday is the Christans' Shabat, so any Christian can properly use it.

Incidentally, Dimanche (derived from 'the Lord's day' in Latin) is one of the few terms in a European language that doesn't refer to the sun.

marlene
07-16-2005, 11:28 AM
When I worked as a typesetter for a Scripps-Howard Business Journal, I frequently was given articles with no heads. I got tired of asking for them and started writing them myself. I used to come up with some good ones that amused the editor, so she let them run.

I can only remember two offhand:

(article about some Florida company landing a big Department of Defense contract):
Defense contract dollars grease South Florida palms

(article about contract carriage, which was something to do with distribution of, in this case, gas):
Contract carriage passes gas savings on to consumers

mxh

Steve Rindsberg
07-16-2005, 12:11 PM
>>I rather regret having called Sunday a day named after an Anglosaxon deity, because Sun was worshipped by numerous peoples, including Egyptians, Persians, Greeks, and Romans; and I think the Japanese too.>>

I wonder if the day's name was a literal reference to the sun in their languages as well.

Michael Rowley
07-16-2005, 02:05 PM
Steve:

I wonder if the day's name was a literal reference to the sun in their languages as well

I only know the name the Romans used for Sunday: dies solis, the day of the sun. A bit I picked up from your link: the Romans had eight days in their week until Caesar Augustus changed it to seven, but most of the other peoples already had the seven-day week. Roman scribes clearly had good grounds for welcoming the equivalent of Friday!

djb
07-17-2005, 07:38 AM
When I worked as a typesetter for a Scripps-Howard Business Journal, I frequently was given articles with no heads. I got tired of asking for them and started writing them myself. I used to come up with some good ones that amused the editor, so she let them run.


Heh. Many, many years ago I was the edit/rewrite/typesetting/design/production department for a small paper in Vancouver. Here are a couple of my headlines from those days:

(story about an RSPCA protest of the market in dog meat in the Philippines)
Brits won't bow over puppy chow row

(story about a fellow mauled to death by lions at an Aussie game park)
Man felled by pride

;-)

Steve Rindsberg
07-17-2005, 09:19 AM
Kind of a DoubleTGIF ... indeed.

Michael Rowley
07-17-2005, 11:55 AM
DJB:

(story about a fellow mauled to death by lions at an Aussie game park)
Man felled by pride

Clever: but I hope your paper didn't have Australian readers—or did your editor veto the 'headlne'?

Michael Rowley
07-17-2005, 12:03 PM
Steve:

Kind of a DoubleTGIF

Yes, but after the revolution in France, they introduced a ten-day week. No wonder the French now want to stick to their 35-h week.

Shane Stanley
07-17-2005, 08:39 PM
Steve:

but after the revolution in France, they introduced a [i]ten-day week. No wonder the French now want to stick to their 35-h week.

I don't know -- as long as the working week remained five days, I think I could get used to a decimal week ;-)

Shane

ElyseC
07-18-2005, 01:48 PM
I don't know -- as long as the working week remained five days, I think I could get used to a decimal week ;-)

ShaneHey! Get some country to pass it as law, doubling all salaries in the process and I'll bet a bunch of us would move there! <g>

donmcc
07-18-2005, 03:56 PM
Just get a job as a freelancer. All your editors will assume you work 10 day weeks.

Don

ElyseC
07-20-2005, 01:44 PM
Me too. Or I think I am, anyway — had to look it up on the web, and finally found a set of tables and an easy method, and then I simply trusted it.I just got this from a friend in email, a birthday calculator (http://s131653538.onlinehome.us/birthday.asp) site. In the results it'll tell you not only the day of the week on which you were born, but how many years, weeks, days, hours and minutes old you are (among other things). Even tells you the moon's phase on that day and some things I haven't a clue about.

ktinkel
07-20-2005, 04:33 PM
I just got this from a friend in email, a birthday calculator (http://s131653538.onlinehome.us/birthday.asp) site. In the results it'll tell you not only the day of the week on which you were born, but how many years, weeks, days, hours and minutes old you are (among other things). Even tells you the moon's phase on that day and some things I haven't a clue about.It agrees with what I found earlier.

For the rest of it: Oh, my! <g>

ElyseC
07-20-2005, 05:05 PM
It agrees with what I found earlier.

For the rest of it: Oh, my! <g>And it gets stranger if you "Click here to learn what your name says about you" at the bottom of that page. <g>

ktinkel
07-20-2005, 05:36 PM
And it gets stranger if you "Click here to learn what your name says about you" at the bottom of that page. <g>I did that. That’s what prompted the “Oh, my!”

ElyseC
07-21-2005, 04:50 AM
I did that. That’s what prompted the “Oh, my!”It says to type the name on your birth certificate, so, for the heck of it, I tried in turn both names of someone I know who has had two legal birth certificates, a completely different name on each. Both results were bizarre. <g>

terrie
07-21-2005, 01:33 PM
>>kt: For the rest of it: Oh, my! <g>

That's numerology...each letter of the alphabet is assigned a number from 1 to 9 (A-I = 1-9, J-R = 1-9, S-Z = 1-7) and I'm not sure I'm remembering correctly but the secondary (J-R and S-Z) numbers are considered "less powerful"...

Anyway...as I remember it, your birthdate (add up the numbers so for example in mmddyyyy format 10+11+1949 is 8) in numerology is your destiny which is essentially fixed because you can't change it--destiny, by the way, in numerological circles is the work one came to do in this lifetime...

Your name on the other hand is not fixed because you can change it--the idea is that sound is energy and so by changing one's name, one changes the sound and thus the energy surrounding you (given and attracted to yourself).

When doing the numbers for one's name, the vowels and the consonants are summed separately--one is your inner self and the other your outer self. I can never remember which is which because both my inner and outer numbers are the same--a friend of mine was really into numerology and did my numbers for me many eons ago...

One can do one's birth name and/or your nickname/common name--for example "Therese" vs. "Terrie"...

There are also karmic numbers which are numbers that don't appear in your name. As I remember, my karmic numbers are 4 and 6. Karmic numbers are the additional areas you came to this life to work on.

I've always found it interesting because I felt that the stuff my friend came up with when she did my numbers was pretty accurate...

Terrie

annc
07-21-2005, 02:31 PM
It agrees with what I found earlier.

For the rest of it: Oh, my! <g>Me too.

This is what it said about me:

Very strong, a bit self-willed, independent, does not allow contradiction or arguments, loves life, its family, children and animals, a bit of a butterfly, good sense of humour, likes idleness and laziness, of practical talent and intelligence.


Much of that is correct, I think.

ktinkel
07-21-2005, 04:07 PM
Very strong, a bit self-willed, independent, does not allow contradiction or arguments, loves life, its family, children and animals, a bit of a butterfly, good sense of humour, likes idleness and laziness, of practical talent and intelligence.

Much of that is correct, I think.
Sounds just like you. Well, except as I can tell from here, the bit about the butterfly!

None of mine made sense to me. Hrrrmph.

Franca
07-21-2005, 04:12 PM
For the rest of it: Oh, my! <g>Oh my, indeed. Much of mine seems to be quite accurate which is both a Good Thing and a Not-so-good Thing. I suppose I wouldn't be human if it were all good....

annc
07-21-2005, 04:19 PM
Sounds just like you. Well, except as I can tell from here, the bit about the butterfly!

None of mine made sense to me. Hrrrmph.The name bit was less like me, I think. What I quoted above was on the first screen, and I think was to do with the numbers.

Not that I believe any of this stuff, of course, but it's interesting to read.