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marlene
06-07-2005, 03:17 PM
I have to typeset a page in Japanese, and the font is a .ttc file (TrueType Collection, according to my Googling).

But I can't figure out how to do whatever it is I need to do to actually use the font. Do I need to extract it or something? It's not usable as is.

TIA,

mxh

Michael Rowley
06-07-2005, 04:48 PM
Marlene:

I have to typeset a page in Japanese, and the font is a .ttc file

I expect you know that a TTC contains several fonts in one file; what you may not know (I didn't) is that Windows XP apparently can't install them. FontExpert ($35) apparently can.

The TTC files are commonly used for Japanese fonts, because the Katekana script is quite limited, but there are an enormous number of Chinese/Japanese hieroglyphics.

marlene
06-07-2005, 04:54 PM
what you may not know (I didn't) is that Windows XP apparently can't install them. FontExpert ($35) apparently can.

I had no idea! But $35 is a small price to pay, when the alternative would be having to tell the client I can't do the job I assured them I could do.

I am off to find FontExpert. I fervently hope it's something I can buy online and download right away ...

UPDATE: No joy. According to the FontExpert web site, FontExpert can display and print installed .ttc fonts, but it cannot actually INSTALL them.

ANOTHER UPDATE: I slid the .ttc font into the Windows fonts folder to see what would happen, and the darned thing installed itself! It now displays AND prints in Word. So, there's one crisis averted.

Now I need to figure out how to make the font work in Quark! When I select the Japanese font in Quark, it does not display in Japanese (I get a bunch of garbage characters).

And I have to do this job in Quark -- the client supplied a Quark template.

This is giving me a migraine.

FINAL (?) UPDATE:

Well, I have discovered that InDesign WILL see the Japanese font, and will create a PDF with the font embedded. Hurray! Now all I need to do is learn to use InDesign in one day!

mxh

Michael Rowley
06-08-2005, 08:30 AM
Marlene:

I slid the .ttc font into the Windows fonts folder to see what would happen, and the darned thing installed itself! It now displays AND prints in Word. So, there's one crisis averted

That's a relief! (Though I've yet to encounter a TTC file.) Both Adobe and Microsoft describe TTC files in some detail: they are still used for more than one OT font, which of course is a likely format for CKJ scripts.

Michael Rowley
06-08-2005, 01:26 PM
Marlee:

Though I've yet to encounter a TTC file—Michael R.

Apparently I had several TTC files in 2002 (several 10 Mbyte!). They must have been on my computer briefly during a Windows update; they're all recorded as having been recycled though. The corresponding TTF fonts were all various CKJ fonts and are no longer on my computer. The interesting thing is that I was still using Windows 2000 at the time.

I hope you're enjoying working with InDesign!

marlene
06-08-2005, 07:02 PM
Both Adobe and Microsoft describe TTC files in some detail

You're not kidding! The web pages I found went into excruciating technical detail. My eyes were glazing over. I just want to know how to use the thing, not what was going on behind the curtain. <g>

mxh

marlene
06-08-2005, 07:04 PM
IIRC, I also found the Japanese font on my old W2k machine (who knew?).

I haven't tackled InDesign yet -- first I need to backsave my Quark template to version 4, since InDesign won't open Quark 5 files. :(

I wonder if the new version of InDesign opens newer Quark files. It'll be days before I get a chance to install the new Creative Suite.

mxh

Michael Rowley
06-09-2005, 07:26 AM
Marlene:

I just want to know how to use the thing

I had difficulty in finding out too, which led me to misinterpret the table on the ExpertFont page. I suppose if we used CKJ fonts regularly we'd know all about TTCs.

Steve Rindsberg
06-09-2005, 01:17 PM
Marlene:

I just want to know how to use the thing

I had difficulty in finding out too, which led me to misinterpret the table on the ExpertFont page. I suppose if we used CKJ fonts regularly we'd know all about TTCs.
Would that it were so. Marlene and I have been exchanging email about this.

Despite my having used various Japanese language fonts for years and even having a Japanese version of Windows and Office lying around on a virtual machine here somewhere, it's the first I've heard of TTC.

Mostly ignorance on my part I'm sure. Or failure to read the Help files in Japanese? Yes, that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it like white on rice.

Pretty entertaining, though, installing Windows-J and Office-J. Luckily I'd installed the English versions of both not long previous so could generally guess what the screen prompts were asking.

Michael Rowley
06-09-2005, 02:46 PM
Steve:

Despite my having used various Japanese language fonts for years

I don't know how Japanese fonts were managed pre-OT, and if 'for years' is long enough ago, they might not have been supplied as TTCs and almost certainly not as OT. One of my daughters brought home a lap-top some years ago when she had been working in Japan, but I think all the fonts were pre-installed. I'll have to look at her Web site, which has a lot of information about Japanese (and more lately, Thai).

Michael Rowley
06-09-2005, 05:17 PM
Steve:

I'll have to look at her Web site, which has a lot of information about Japanese

Melita's Web site has a lot of information for those learning Japanese, but unfortunately there's not much about fonts for Kanji etc. There's some information though under 'Documentation'.

Steve Rindsberg
06-12-2005, 09:46 AM
Steve:

Despite my having used various Japanese language fonts for years

I don't know how Japanese fonts were managed pre-OT, and if 'for years' is long enough ago, they might not have been supplied as TTCs and almost certainly not as OT. One of my daughters brought home a lap-top some years ago when she had been working in Japan, but I think all the fonts were pre-installed. I'll have to look at her Web site, which has a lot of information about Japanese (and more lately, Thai).
I've used Japanese fonts supplied as individual TrueType (ie, TTF rather than TTC) and in various proprietary formats supplied with specialist word processor apps (oddball programs intended for non-Japanese who wanted to write in Japanese on non-Japanese operating systems). Adobe supports Japanese in Type1 but I never had reason to study how it works. On the rare occasions when I needed it, it did.

Aside: An Adobe employee, Ken Lunde, wrote the bible for those interested in CJK language processing on computers. I don't have it in front of me but can dig up the title if you're interested.

IAC, life's much simpler now; before, there were at least 4 or 5 encoding methods in fairly common use. It wasn't enough to know that a given text file was in Japanese, you also had to know whether it was encoded in JIS, ShiftJIS or any of several other open or proprietary standards.

Steve Rindsberg
06-12-2005, 09:47 AM
What's the url for Melita's site?

Michael Rowley
06-12-2005, 01:47 PM
Steve:

What's the url for Melita's site?

www.cs.ucl.ac.uk/staff/m.rowley (http://www.cs.ucl.ac.uk/staff/m.rowley)

Michael Rowley
06-12-2005, 02:01 PM
Steve:

Adobe supports Japanese in Type1

And of course Windows & Word do at the drop of a hat. And FrameMaker's big use depends on the support it gives for Japanese; you used to have to pay for it, but v. 7 does Japanese (and SGML, which for me comes to much the same thing!).

I have never understood why Japanese writing uses Chinese characters, for unlike Chinese, there is a 'Japanese' language, which is not particularly complicated (so Melita says). Habit, I suppose, but a habit that entails learning about 20 thousand different characters is one I wouldn't wish to acquire!

Steve Rindsberg
06-13-2005, 01:16 PM
>>I have never understood why Japanese writing uses Chinese characters, for unlike Chinese, there is a 'Japanese' language, which is not particularly complicated (so Melita says).

Less so than English in that it's not a messy conglomeration of several different related and unrelated languages and their grammatical systems and spelling peculiarities.

It's not as phonetically rich as English; homonyms abound (great fun if you've a weakness for puns). And there are no word breaks. So when it's written entirely in hiragana or katakana, it's harder to read than when it's in kanji and kana (kanji for the root meanings, kana for verb/adjective inflections, particles, bits, pieces). Not to suggest that I can really read much either way, mind you.

Besides, say the educator, parent and bureaucrat to the student "WE had to suffer through learning all those kanji, and if it was good enough for us, it's good enough for you."

Steve Rindsberg
06-13-2005, 01:24 PM
That's a very useful set of links she's got there. Thanks.

Michael Rowley
06-13-2005, 02:05 PM
Steve:

"WE had to suffer through learning all those kanji, and if it was good enough for us, it's good enough for you."

You've got a point there. But none of my four children accepted advice (or instructions) from me about their education: Melita decided to go for a degree in Japanese after she had been working alongside Japanese women in a London office. She found the spoken language easy to pick up. Fortunately, she's a neat penman, & was able to learn the Kanji too.