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View Full Version : ATM Deluxe (Win) fails to recognize all fonts


Michael Rowley
06-05-2005, 10:20 AM
I have been using FontTrans for converting Windows T1 fonts into TT fonts, but sometimes ATM Deluxe fails to recognize all the fonts, although the files can be opened in Font Viewer.

For instance, I have converted 9 Minion T1 font files into TT font files, but ATM only recognizes 4—and not even 4 that form a set. I think it may be a naming problem: possibly FontTrans is not naming the files correctly, or ATM does not recognize the naming convention.

FontTrans gives me three choices for naming the Win TT fonts (8.3, PS name, or 'long name'—what's that?), but as the source fonts are Win T1, they have 8.3 names already, though different from the TT name; for instance, 'MJB_____.PFB' becomes a slightly less enigmatic 'MINIONEB.TTF' (both are Minion Expert Bold).

Any help will be gratefully received! I'm all at sea.

Michael Rowley
06-05-2005, 12:33 PM
Corrigendum:

For 'FontTrans' read 'TransType'.

marlene
06-05-2005, 06:43 PM
I don't know anything about TransType, but I've used a couple other programs for converting fonts, and whatever problems I've run into using the fonts were always due to naming.

These days I use TypeTool for kerning fonts, and it's got a lot of naming going on.

In addition to the actual 8.3 filenames, TypeTool's info window lists. Here's a sample listing for my own version of Garamond Bold (I add "MX" to the font name so I know it's a font I've kerned).

A family name, which can have spaces (I think this is the name that shows up in applications), e.g.: Garamond Book BT ITC MX

And another name (TypeTool calls it a "font name"), can't have spaces, e.g.: Garamond-Bold-BT-ITC-MX

A "full name" which can have spaces, e.g.: Garamond Bold BT ITC MX

A "menu name" which can have spaces, e.g.: Garamond Book BT ITC MX (IIRC, this has to match the family name)

It also lists "FOND" name, although I don't know what that's for: Garamond Book BT ITC MX

I also have to make sure the style setting for each font in a family is correct, or the fonts won't link properly or won't show up.

I've used other programs that handled the naming differently (had different titles for the categories, etc.) and I still get confused by it all ...

Also, I've never converted T1 fonts to TT, so there might be something completely different going on there.

mxh

terrie
06-07-2005, 12:46 PM
Before we lost the other posts to this thread, you mentioned that a couple of the conversions worked and I asked if there was a pattern to the ones that worked...

I also wondered if fonts had internal filenames as color management profiles (monitors, work spaces, paper) do...if so, that internal name needs to be modified when the external name is modified--easier to do on the mac side than the pc side...

Terrie

Michael Rowley
06-07-2005, 01:54 PM
Terrie:

I did reply, but the reply seems to have been lost. In short: I coudn't make out what distinguished the two files that weren't recognized by ATM Deluxe from the four that were. Neither can I make out why TransType would only transform two files out of 13!

I'm going to read up on font-naming; meanwhile, I shall stick to transforming OTF font files to TT/OT font files.

terrie
06-08-2005, 11:54 AM
>>michaelr: I'm going to read up on font-naming; meanwhile, I shall stick to transforming OTF font files to TT/OT font files.

Do keep us posted...I'm most interested...

Terrie

Michael Rowley
06-08-2005, 12:15 PM
Terrie:

Do keep us posted...I'm most interested

Yes, I shall—providing I can understand any of it. I know already that all OT fonts have a 'names' table, so transformations between PS and TT OT fonts should cause no difficulty in either direction.

Another thing I picked up is that OT font files may have PS outlines, TT outlines, or both. If they contain PS outlines or both PS & TT, they have the OTF extension; only if they only contain TT outline information do they have the TT extension. All font collections have the file extension TTC, but the individual fonts may be OT.

terrie
06-08-2005, 01:13 PM
>>michaelr: Another thing I picked up is that OT font files may have PS outlines, TT outlines, or both.

I think I've read that somewhere...

Terrie

Michael Rowley
06-09-2005, 11:34 AM
Terrie:

I've confirmed that ATM Deluxe fails to recognize

Eurocrat.ttf
Eurocrat-MediumItalic.ttf

but did recognize

Eurocrat-Bold.ttf
Eurocrat-BoldItalic.ttf
Eurocrat-Italic.ttf
Eurocrat-Medium.ttf.

If you or anyone else can see a common feature in those two groups, I'd be glad to hear it. The pfb files had 8.3 names, but that is no longer necessary. Windows Font Viewer can see all six Eurocrat TTF files.

terrie
06-10-2005, 11:09 AM
>>michael: If you or anyone else can see a common feature in those two groups,

Well...there's the obvious...

1. "Eurocrat.ttf" does not have a dash--could you try naming it something like "Euro-crat.tff" or "Eurocrat-Norm.ttf"?

2. "Eurocrat-MediumItalic.tff" is 21 chars (before the .tff) and the longest one that was accepted is "Eurocrat-BoldItalic.ttf" which is 19 chars (before the .ttf)...maybe rename is to "Eurocrat-MedItalic.ttf"???

Grasping at straws???

Terrie

Michael Rowley
06-10-2005, 12:12 PM
Terrie:

1. "Eurocrat.ttf" does not have a dash--could you try naming it something like "Euro-crat.tff" or "Eurocrat-Norm.ttf"?

2. "Eurocrat-MediumItalic.tff" is 21 chars (before the .tff) and the longest one that was accepted is "Eurocrat-BoldItalic.ttf" which is 19 chars (before the .ttf)...maybe rename is to "Eurocrat-MedItalic.ttf"

Well, full marks for trying! But . . .

There's no hyphen or dash in a lot of font names, including the names of fonts that have been converted successfully.

Both Windows (since 1995) and the Mac allow 'long names' (which can be very long), I don't think the length of the name plays a role. It would be different if I specified '8.3' names, but that's only necessary is I wanted to use the fonts in DOS or Windows 3.

It is, by the way, the rule to give just the family name (e.g. Minion Pro) for a font that is 'regular'.

The latest horror story is this: I attempted to convert the standard four fonts of Helvetica, and succeeded in making four TTF fonts that ATM Deluxe recognized; but I checked how the fonts looked, and to my astonishment I found that the two that should have been respectively 'Oblique' and 'BoldOblique' were simply regular and 'Bold'!

I have also found that although I could (apparently) convert Eurocrat and Origami to TTF and instal them without ATM Deluxe—I was trying to be clever—, Word didn't recognize them, though when I reactivated the corresponding PS fonts, they reappeared in Word.

terrie
06-11-2005, 02:16 PM
>>michaelr: There's no hyphen or dash in a lot of font names, including the names of fonts that have been converted successfully.

Welll...pisser...'-}}

I wonder if you might have more success with TransType (http://www.fontlab.com/Font-tools/TransType/) from FontLab?

Terrie

Michael Rowley
06-11-2005, 02:54 PM
Terrie:

I wonder if you might have more success with TransType from FontLab?

It's files transformed by TransType that I'm talking about!

I had thought that the failure to recognize all files transformed by TransType 3 was the fault of ATM Deluxe, but everything seem to point to TranType itself as the culprit. It seems to work all right with OTF files (PS-flavoured OT files) but not with PS files, although it is claimed that it works with those too.

Possibly I'm doing something wrong, but I'm not convinced of this. On the other hand, FontLab is supposed to be a reputable company.

terrie
06-14-2005, 12:06 PM
>>michaelr: It's files transformed by TransType that I'm talking about!

I thought that but when I went back to your original post you said you were using "FontTrans"...

Terrie

tphinney
07-02-2005, 11:27 AM
Actually, the OpenType spec specifically warns against putting both outline formats in one font. This is unsupported, and I can't think of a single good reason to do it.

T (one of the OT spec guardians)

tphinney
07-02-2005, 11:31 AM
From the symptoms you describe, it seems that the problem is that TransType's conversion is causing collisions between the "regular" and the "medium" weights. This is not surprising, as in many font families "regular" and "medium" are synonymous. It's quite unusual to have both in the same family.

Regards,

T

Michael Rowley
07-02-2005, 03:01 PM
Thomas:

the OpenType spec specifically warns against putting both outline formats in one font

I wasn't advocating it, but what is the objection to having both outline formats in on font? Do computers just get muddled?

Michael Rowley
07-02-2005, 03:16 PM
Thomas:

It's quite unusual to have both in the same family

The PS fonts that wouldn't convert properly to TT fonts are actually fairly old as fonts go, but functioned perfectly well as PS fonts. But is it really unusual? Minion Pro, for example, has four regular fonts and four medium fonts, which no program has difficulty with (though when using them I have difficulty in handling them in Word—say—without frequently consulting Adobe's instructions). Possibly TransType hasn't yet mastered the naming conventions—or I haven't mastered TransType!

tphinney
07-02-2005, 03:59 PM
Possibly TransType hasn't yet mastered the naming conventions—or I haven't mastered TransType!

Probably one of the two.

Adam Twardoch wrote a very nice post about all the various font name fields and how to set them, which is in the FontLab forums somewhere. It sort of distills most of his and my knowledge of the subject.

The main thing to keep in mind is that you can have a bunch of fonts that all work fine individually, but that conflict when you try to use them all at once. In this case, I'd suspect that probably you are trying to put more than two weights in a single (Windows) family. Certainly the Medium needs to have a different Windows family name than the Regular. Only the style-linked bold and italic can share the same Windows family name (name ID 1, platform ID 3 - Windows).

Regards,

T

tphinney
07-02-2005, 04:21 PM
Thomas:
I wasn't advocating it, but what is the objection to having both outline formats in on font? Do computers just get muddled?

We don't know, because it's not supported and hasn't been tested. But the reason for not supporting it is that it has a lot of disadvantages:

- the fonts would be much bigger

- there would be yet another way to make malicious fonts (this one is that the outlines could differ in surprising ways between the two sets)

- there is no clear way for an application or OS that can render either set of outlines to know which one to use

- nobody has identified a clear advantage for dual outlines


One thing you might think is that it would be "good" to use TrueType for screen display, and the PostScript style (CFF) outlines for printing. This is based on two false assumptions: that TrueType is better for screen, and Type 1 and CFF are better for print.

- with current rasterizing and anti-aliasing technologies (ClearType, CoolType, OS X font rendering), there is little real advantage to TrueType outlines over Type 1 or CFF outlines.
There are some environments where less sophisticated rendering might be used. Those environments might genuinely benefit from TrueType, but they also tend to be really storage/memory constrained so bigger fonts would be a bad thing.

- TrueType prints just as well as Type 1 or CFF, even to PostScript devices, and this has been true for a good decade or more now.

Anyway, does that all make sense?

Cheers,

T

Norman Hathaway
07-03-2005, 06:47 AM
so THAT'S what tom looks like!

Michael Rowley
07-03-2005, 07:47 AM
Thomas:

TrueType prints just as well as Type 1

Not only that: in my (admittedly limited) experience, a Type 1 font displays as well as a TT font. My only reason for wanting to convert OTF fonts to their equivalent TT fonts is to overcome the refusal by Microsoft applications to embed the unconverted OTF fonts, although they may contain (or must contain?) the same embedding permissions. After they have been converted to TT fonts, it is possible (though not always advisable) to embed them in, for example, a Word file.

the fonts would be much bigger

Of your listed objections to dual outline formats, that seems to me to be the weakest, since an OT font is likely to be very big (though not always as big as Arial Unicode!). True, one can embed only a subset now, but that is often not thought of.

there is no clear way for an application or OS that can render either set of outlines to know which one to use

That, it seems to me, to be the strongest objection.

Anyway, you've made your point: thanks.

Michael Rowley
07-03-2005, 07:58 AM
Thomas:

Adam Twardoch wrote a very nice post about all the various font name fields and how to set them

Thank you: I'll look that up. Unfortunately, I waa unable to find a way of naming that TransType allowed (including the one for font families larger than four) that solved my problem.

I might add that families of OTF fonts supplied by Adobe give no trouble; I haven't got any others yet.

tphinney
07-03-2005, 08:16 AM
so THAT'S what tom looks like!

Actually, that's what one of my security doubles looks like. (You know, in case of an assassination attempt.)

:)

T

Michael Rowley
07-03-2005, 02:58 PM
Thomas:

that's what one of my security doubles looks like

Ahem! From my recollection, it's what he looked like seven or so years ago. Perhaps he should grizzle the beard a bit.

tphinney
07-03-2005, 05:14 PM
Thomas:
Ahem! From my recollection, it's what he looked like seven or so years ago. Perhaps he should grizzle the beard a bit.

I guess he hasn't changed much - that pic is only a few months old. :)

T

Norman Hathaway
07-03-2005, 06:51 PM
wait
you're in seattle now as well??

is everyone from seattle?
john downer's probably your brother too- right?