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ktinkel
03-28-2005, 01:45 PM
Cameron Moll has written an article on a timely topic: “The non-typographer’s guide to practical typeface selection (http://www.cameronmoll.com/archives/000240.html).” In fact, some of his comments could be thought-provoking for anyone who uses type — typographer or not.

Found the link on the Microsoft Typography site (http://www.microsoft.com/typography) (which also has a short note about our move from CIS to here). The MS site keeps a pretty good list of news items about fonts, typographic events, and news.

—Kathleen

Bo Aakerstrom
03-28-2005, 02:25 PM
Thanks, there is always something new to learn.
Cameron Moll sounds like an intresting type (no pun intended).

ktinkel
03-28-2005, 02:44 PM
Cameron Moll sounds like an intresting type (no pun intended).Yes — he does. Has some good ideas in the article, too.

—Kathleen

terrie
03-29-2005, 02:11 PM
I'm so glad you started this thread! I've been meaning to post about a font selection website mentioned in the March issue of PC Graphics Report - http://pcgraphicsreport.com/ .

See:
http://www.will-harris.com/esperfonto/

It's interesting and I think might be useful--particularly if you know your fonts as it doesn't display the actual font faces...

I'm curious what you think of it...

Terrie

ktinkel
03-29-2005, 05:43 PM
[will-harris (http://www.will-harris.com/esperfonto/) … Daniel Will-Harris and I go way back. Unfortunately, I do not have much faith in his typographic advice.

So I think I will simply not comment. :-(

JVegVT
03-29-2005, 07:45 PM
Did you see this at Microsoft's site here:
http://www.microsoft.com/typography/links/News.aspx?NID=3441

"Female giants of type
"About.com - 2 September 2004

"About.com's Jacci Howard Bear names Beatrice Ward, Carol Twombly, Kathleen Tinkel and Robin Williams as four of the most influential women from the world of type."

You're in distinguished company, or should I say they are.
--Judy M.

ElyseC
03-29-2005, 09:29 PM
And I just discovered last week that DWH apparently knows and did the site design for Brian Stokes Mitchell (http://www.will-harris.com/design/stokes-site.html), an actor/singer that my 5 year old aspiring actor wanted to know more about after hearing him singing "Through Heaven's Eyes" in Spielberg's animated movie Prince of Egypt.

Ben asked me to find a picture of BSM on line and Google's image search pulled up something at the site above. When I went exploring it took me a few minutes, but I finally noticed that part of it was housed at DWH's site.

ElyseC
03-29-2005, 09:31 PM
Jacci used to be a forum member years ago. I wonder if she knows we're here now.

Franca
03-29-2005, 11:14 PM
Wow, we have a "giant of type" in our midst! Great find, Judy.

ktinkel
03-30-2005, 07:42 AM
"About.com's Jacci Howard Bear names Beatrice Ward, Carol Twombly, Kathleen Tinkel and Robin Williams as four of the most influential women from the world of type."

You're in distinguished company, or should I say they are.Oh, gee — that old thing! <g>

I am pretty sure that none of the other three of us would ever put ourselves on Beatrice Ward’s level. It was she (writing as Paul Beaujean) who discovered that the fonts long believed to be Garamond’s 16th-century originals were in fact Jean Jannon’s from the 17th century.

Except for Stempel Garamond and its clones, all the “Garamonds” developed before WW2 should actually have been named for Jannon. There have been a few notable Garamond-based fonts since then: Garaldus (1956; Novarese; no longer available); Sabon (1966; Tschichold; somewhat diminished by its production requirements); Adobe Garamond (1989; Rob Slimbach); 1530 Garamont (1993; Ross Mills/Tiro; no longer offered); and Augereau (1996?; George Abrams).

Ward also gave the famous “crystal goblet” talk in which she said that type should be invisible. She also was editor of The Monotype Recorder for many years, during the interesting period between the world wars when that company was developing many fonts based on early models.

terrie
03-30-2005, 11:52 AM
>>kt: Unfortunately, I do not have much faith in his typographic advice.

Ahhh...well...I asked...'-}}

I would find it a more useful site if there were font specimens because my experience is somewhat limited and I don't know a font just by name...

Terrie

ktinkel
03-30-2005, 02:15 PM
I would find it a more useful site if there were font specimens because my experience is somewhat limited and I don't know a font just by name...Making illustrations is time-consuming, especially as first you have to figure out what you want to do.

It is also an investment that pays off better in print — subtle detail is not the web’s strong suit.

donmcc
03-30-2005, 04:28 PM
Thanks for the update on Beatrice Ward. I had not previously heard of her.

Personally, I don't put Robin Williams up on the same level as the other three. She's a good writer, and perhaps designer, but I don't know that she is at such a high level in typography.

Don McCahill

ktinkel
03-30-2005, 05:53 PM
Thanks for the update on Beatrice Ward. I had not previously heard of her.She was married to Frederic Ward(e), who designed the italics used with Centaur. They were quite the couple, in the typographic world at least, in the 20s and 30s.

She said at some point (and I am paraphrasing from memory) that her great talent was to speak to people about type and to get them to a point where they were so engaged they couldn’t even wiggle a finger. I can imagine that this was so. (She was also responsible — in her role as PR person for Monotype — for some saccharine stuff, including a poster about “a printing office,” but she is still an admirable character, to me, anyway.)

Gary Munch has posted Beatrice Ward’s “crystal goblet” speech (http://gmunch.home.pipeline.com/typo-L/misc/ward.htm) (later article) on his web site. It is worth reading — in part because the “grunge” type artists of the 1990s absolutely hated the whole notion that type should be invisible.

Whether typographers (and graphic designers) should be expressive or invisible is still a topic for debate, but no matter where you stand, you are likely to enjoy this essay.

JVegVT
03-31-2005, 06:12 PM
Interesting that Beatrice Ward wrote under a male pseudonym. Did that lend some credibility she would not have had if writing as a woman, or was there some other reason?

I noticed there was a link in the Microsoft blurb whose URL I posted and it leads to the original About.com article:
http://desktoppub.about.com/od/womenintype/l/aa_typewomen.htm

Jacci briefly explains why she considers each of you important.

I also found a link to here, which leads to more:
http://desktoppub.about.com/od/womenintype/

I found Beatrice's last name as both Ward and Warde. Which is correct?
--Judy M.

ktinkel
04-01-2005, 07:34 AM
Interesting that Beatrice Ward wrote under a male pseudonym. Did that lend some credibility she would not have had if writing as a woman, or was there some other reason?Well, it may have been for a bit of fun — she wrote a column under that name for The Fleuron. But I think she also thought that her more scholarly work — like the Garamond types article — would be better received if people thought it came from a man (she was mainly involved in publicity for Monotype).

I found Beatrice's last name as both Ward and Warde. Which is correct?I am pretty sure I read somewhere that Frederic Ward changed his name to Warde at some point in his life, but I cannot find the reference.

Stanley Morison, who knew both of them, spells it Warde in A Tally of Types; so does Sebastian Carter in Twentieth Century Type Designers, and he is not only a good scholar but his father probably knew Beatrice and Frederic. I have also seen reproductions of some of her correspondence in which she spells her name Ward, but I have no idea of the dates.

I guess the consensus is to use Warde. I’ll try to remember that.

EsperFonto
04-06-2005, 01:29 AM
Daniel Will-Harris and I go way back. Unfortunately, I do not have much faith in his typographic advice. So I think I will simply not comment. :-(

Your non-comment was comment enough.

While you may question my advice, around 150,000 people a month trust it. www.will-harris.com (http://will-harris.com/) and www.esperfonto.com (http://esperfonto.com/) are two of the web's most popular sites about typography.

Matthew Carter seems fine with it, too: I wrote "TypeStyle, how to choose and use type (http://www.will-harris.com/store-h/typestyle.htm)," in association with Bistream while Carter was there.

I created and wrote the "Using Type" column in Personal Publishing--the column I handed over to you when I became too busy with design work.

And you will find some of my typographic work in MoMA.

I may disagree with you, but notice I have not written anything negative about my faith in your typographic advice. Maybe it's because I believe that a great deal of typography is subjective, that there are no "good" or "bad" typefaces, just faces used "appropriately" or "inappropriately."

In this case, I think your comment was inappropriate.

Daniel Will-Harris

Michael Rowley
04-06-2005, 04:44 PM
Daniel:

I think your comment was inappropriate

Having read your interesting, but occasionally unorthodox, views on typesetting, it is hardly surprising that KT's opinion on your typographic advice is, at the best, that it is good in parts. I was myself somewhat disconcerted to learn that you think the en-dash was hardly used these days to indicate ranges (as in, for example, ‘January 6–17'); you must be reading quite different printed matter from me. And, if you'll forgive me, in writing about ligatures, you show perhaps a common US attitude to languages other than English: the 'fi' and 'fl' ligatures are not the most important in some lanuages that use latin script.

So continue to express your views on typography, but allow that others might not agree with those of them that appear controversial—and to say so.

EsperFonto
04-08-2005, 12:23 AM
Michael:

I have no problem with people disagreeing with some of my opinions on type, just as I, at times, disagree with others opinions. Yes, some of my opinions are unorthodox and I hope they make people think and come to their own conclusions.

What I find inappropriate is someone making dismissive and negative blanket statements about my typographic advice. An exaggeration like that is both inaccurate and unfair.

You probably agree with at least 90% or more of what I've written about type, perhaps more. So to disregard my work based on a few unorthodox ideas you disagree with seems excessive.

Finally, if you look back at history, what's unorthodox one day sometimes becomes accepted practice the next. I'm not saying my unorthodox views will, just that only time will tell.

Daniel

Michael Rowley
04-08-2005, 02:30 PM
Daniel:

dismissive and negative blanket statements about my typographic advice

If it were someone like me, another chap with a keen, but amateurish interest in typography, the remark, ‘I do not have much faith in his typographic advice’, would be regarded as simply rude, but from another typographic expert it is acceptable by everyone—or nearly everyone—as an expression of polite disapprobation.