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ktinkel
03-15-2005, 06:59 AM
I am at my wits’ end trying to make sensible use of fonts in OS X. It got so bad that I was doing everything in ATM Deluxe 4.6 in Classic (since OS X honors those fonts along with all the others).

Now I am struggling with Suitcase XI and a demo copy of FontAgent Pro. I even toyed with trying to live with FontBook, but really want auto-activation, which it does not have.

My problem is that I have way too many fonts open/active all the time. I hate that. The shorter the list, the better.

So I went through all the Library > Fonts folders that I could control, and deleted all the fonts. That leaves (in theory) only those in the System > Library > Fonts folder.

Then I deleted all the fonts in Suitcase, or thought I did. It seems to remember them, however. I guess I need to uninstall the software, delete its prefs from the plist, reinstall and start over.

Or switch to FontAgent Pro, which I downloaded on a recommendation here to see if it would be less balky and incomprehensible than Suitcase. It does seem easier to understand, but both programs are extremely slow in use — clicking to activate a font, for example, results in a long wait (several seconds) before the change occurs. Perhaps it is the number of fonts?

I would really, really like to have the functionality of ATM 4.6 again. It was nearly perfect, and its abandonment by Adobe has me very cross.

Anyway, what are you doing for font management in OS X? Any brilliant solutions?

Jonathan
03-15-2005, 07:13 AM
what are you doing for font management in OS X?Pretty much exactly what you are doing, and hating it.

Why did Adobe abandon ATM deluxe?

I look forward to hearing from anyone that has found a comfortable solution to the OS X font management problem.

ktinkel
03-15-2005, 08:16 AM
Pretty much exactly what you are doing, and hating it.Oh, no!

If you can’t make this work, no one can. I am now officially and utterly forlorn.

Why did Adobe abandon ATM deluxe?I think it didn’t look like a profitable place to be. Apple announced it would ship FontBook (no matter that it’s useless; most users would be content with it). And Extensis was consolidating its position, with versions of both Suitcase and Font Reserve for both platforms.

Apple seems to have fixed fonts for the casual user (maybe — although no one who looks under the hood can avoid being confused) by wrecking any possibility of ease of use for people with hundreds or thousands of fonts to manage.

Michael Rowley
03-15-2005, 08:28 AM
KT:

‘versions of both Suitcase and Font Reserve for both platforms’

I think that FontReserve will prevent two fonts with identical names from being active, but it also prevents your deactivating the fonts that Mac OS 10 treats as 'system' fonts. I didn't pay much attention, because I'm not concerned with the Mac OS. The information is in the User Guide.

Jonathan
03-15-2005, 08:40 AM
Oh, no!

If you can’t make this work, no one can. I am now officially and utterly forlorn.I was thinking the same thing about you <g>.

Mind you, I have only been doing paying work on a machine that runs OS X since October last year, so I have a long way to go catching up on the essential details. We've had OS X running on our iMac for a couple of years, but that's mostly for accounting and homework stuff.

I'm all ears here!

ktinkel
03-15-2005, 11:11 AM
I think that FontReserve will prevent two fonts with identical names from being active, but it also prevents your deactivating the fonts that Mac OS 10 treats as 'system' fonts. Actually, all three will resolve font conflicts and protect you from damaged fonts, and no utility can do anything about the “system” fonts. (I could, as admin of my own machine; but one is strongly warned not to do any such thing.)

But the way the font managers work varies a lot. I never liked FontReserve, even though as I did like Brian Berson, the guy who developed it. So although I have an old license to the software that I could probably update, I haven’t really seen a reason to.

Before OS X I had adopted ATM Deluxe, abandoning Suitcase and FontJuggler without a backwards glance. Now, of course, the game has changed, and I am unhappy with my options. Sigh.

Michael Rowley
03-15-2005, 12:39 PM
KT:

‘all three will resolve font conflicts’

What is actually the problem then? Does Mac OS 10 do something that make ATM Deluxe 4.6 for the Mac not work? And what about Font Book, which Apple Computers describes as the bees' knees for font management.

Please excuse the naive questions: I'm a satisfied Windows XP & ATM Deluxe 4.1 for Windows user, so I've been spared the seemingly complicated arrangements for handling fonts in Mac OS 10. The only problem I've encountered is the number of fonts Windows seem to think should not (and cannot) be inactive.

Shane Stanley
03-15-2005, 02:29 PM
what are you doing for font management in OS X?

I use Font Book to turn off system fonts I don't want open (just the conflicting .dfonts for me). And I move all the non-required ones that Adobe apps put in /Library/Application Support/ into folders elsewhere. Then I use Suitcase as normal. But I don't use auto-activation, I don't have zillions of fonts, and I don't really get upset at long font menus.

I guess I've come to the conclusion that fighting software accelerates the ageing process, and my first reaction is to see if we can just get along. Sad, I know...

Shane

donmcc
03-15-2005, 05:29 PM
[Gloating a bit over having moved to Windows 10 years ago, leaving the <easier> system. Still using ATM too.]

Don McCahill

ktinkel
03-15-2005, 06:19 PM
I use Font Book to turn off system fonts I don't want open (just the conflicting .dfonts for me). And I move all the non-required ones that Adobe apps put in /Library/Application Support/ into folders elsewhere.So that’s where they are! Um — which are required? I see one folder marked Rqrd; is that all that must remain?

I guess I've come to the conclusion that fighting software accelerates the ageing process, and my first reaction is to see if we can just get along. Sad, I know... Well, I have tried to “just get along” but when it comes to fonts, I simply can’t. I never know what’s going on, and I really, seriously loathe wading through long font lists on a job that uses exactly six fonts!

I have given in to most of the other OS X demands, but not this.

ktinkel
03-15-2005, 06:20 PM
[Gloating a bit over having moved to Windows 10 years ago, leaving the <easier> system. Still using ATM too.]Windows would never be my (voluntary) choice. But I am glad you have one thing to gloat over! <g>

Franca
03-15-2005, 07:32 PM
If I could spend five minutes on my father's computer right now I could probably come up with a few more things we Windows folks could gloat over ... but none likely as big as the fonts thing. Thankfully his computer is in New Hampshire so we are both spared my struggles with it for the near future. The OS X fonts issue sounds really frustrating; I also am quite "controlling" when it comes to my fonts and much prefer to keep the numbers of active fonts as low as possible.

annc
03-15-2005, 08:57 PM
I've basically given up, and just let everything hang out in /User/Library/Fonts. I've found that if I drop fonts in there, my Adobe apps can see them instantly, and InDesign at least will accept Windows TrueType. I have a horrendously long font list, but it works.

Mike
03-16-2005, 12:28 AM
I'm lurking here in case somebody has any bright ideas. I'm using Suitcase and, most of the time it's reasonable. It auto-activates fonts in InDesign which is the most important thing.

I've disabled most of the fonts that seem to use eastern characters, got Suitcase to manage the system fonts and now I'm trying to get to grips with using sets of fonts in Suitcase.

Life was never this difficult with ATM.

ktinkel
03-16-2005, 05:40 AM
Life was never this difficult with ATM.Amen!

Jonathan
03-16-2005, 05:59 AM
Having fonts available when you need them is one important aspect of font management, but there's another problem for me; locating fonts in documents that don't belong there.

Much of the work I handle in book production is layout files that have originated elsewhere (my authors like to write in PageMaker and InDesign), or layout documents that are being repurposed or revised from an earlier edition. Often these have fonts spec'd that don't belong there, and if I don't find and fix them I hear about it after I send these files off for output.

So it's important to me to have the absolute minimum of fonts loaded, and to be able to quickly turn on and off specific sets of fonts for particular jobs, so I can search-and-destroy fonts that don't belong in a layout.

Michael Rowley
03-16-2005, 08:08 AM
KT:

I'll repeat the question posed earlier: does Mac OS 10 do something that makes ATM Deluxe 4.6 for the Mac not work?

I'm wondering, because I'm still using ATM Deluxe 4.1 (for Windows) and there may be snags to that that I haven't recognised.

djb
03-16-2005, 08:42 AM
have a look at http://www.balderstone.ca/FontsInPanther.pdf to see how we're configuring our production Macs here at the Western Producer using Suitcase and Suitcase Server

annc
03-16-2005, 09:42 AM
KT:

I'll repeat the question posed earlier: does Mac OS 10 do something that makes ATM Deluxe 4.6 for the Mac not work?

I'm wondering, because I'm still using ATM Deluxe 4.1 (for Windows) and there may be snags to that that I haven't recognised.Mac OS X is a totally different operating system from OS 9.x and earlier. It was rewritten from the ground up and is not an upgrade.

ATM Deluxe only works with applications within 'Classic' (OS 9.2) on Mac OS X computers, so you can't use it in any of the Mac OS X applications. Font handling is totally different in Mac OS X.

I don't think you have to worry about problems with ATM Deluxe 4.6 Mac affecting you with ATM Deluxe 4.1 in Windows. ;-)

annc
03-16-2005, 09:44 AM
I'm lurking here in case somebody has any bright ideas. I'm using Suitcase and, most of the time it's reasonable. It auto-activates fonts in InDesign which is the most important thing.

I've disabled most of the fonts that seem to use eastern characters, got Suitcase to manage the system fonts and now I'm trying to get to grips with using sets of fonts in Suitcase.

Life was never this difficult with ATM.I had horrendous problems with Suitcase X in the early days of Mac OS X, and had to disable it. I've never upgraded it or tried to use it again.

djb
03-16-2005, 10:06 AM
I had horrendous problems with Suitcase X in the early days of Mac OS X, and had to disable it. I've never upgraded it or tried to use it again.

We run Suitcase and Suitcase Server (currently version 11.0.4, but we started with version 10.something) here on about 15 production Macs in both Editorial and my department. I've had virtually no problems, but I spent some time experimenting with various configurations first.

annc
03-16-2005, 10:44 AM
We run Suitcase and Suitcase Server (currently version 11.0.4, but we started with version 10.something) here on about 15 production Macs in both Editorial and my department. I've had virtually no problems, but I spent some time experimenting with various configurations first.I did quite a lot of fiddling with Suitcase X, but it was a very early version.

Michael Rowley
03-16-2005, 10:45 AM
Ann:

‘Mac OS X is a totally different operating system from OS 9.x and earlier’

I know that (it's said to be based on Unix), but I hadn’t realized that Adobe hadn't upgraded ATM Deluxe for the Mac so that it could be used with OS 10. The Wndows version was suitable for NT5, and has proved to be suitable for NT5.5, although I'm not quite sure that its User Guide is valid in every point.

I don't know the interface for ATM Deluxe 4.6.1, but the interface of v. 4.1 for Windows is very simple, unlike those of Suitcase etc., and switching fonts on and off is very quick in v. 4.1.

I expect KT is too upset to reply to my question, which I realize now was rather tactless; but you must know I've had a very sheltered upbringing.

I see that Suitcase has a free add-on that transfers all fonts in ATM Deluxe 4.6.1 to Suitcase (10?); if that works, it should make the change relatively painless.

ktinkel
03-16-2005, 11:23 AM
I'll repeat the question posed earlier: does Mac OS 10 do something that makes ATM Deluxe 4.6 for the Mac not work?Adobe did not develop ATM Deluxe for OS X. I can (and do) use it in Classic for OS 9 apps that I still use, but it doesn’t work for OS X.

If it did, I would use it.

ktinkel
03-16-2005, 11:25 AM
I see that Suitcase has a free add-on that transfers all fonts in ATM Deluxe 4.6.1 to Suitcase (10?); if that works, it should make the change relatively painless.But it is the way Suitcase functions — not the process of setting up the fonts in it — that drives me crazy.

Among other things, it takes many seconds after you tell it to activate a font before it does so. So long that I often click again, thinking it didn’t take, which, of course, turns it off again. Very, seriously irritating.

scottleyes
03-16-2005, 12:21 PM
I feel your pain.

With nearly a gigabyte of fonts on my system, I still haven't solved this basic issue. It really has come down to being disciplined (read: constrained) and living with less.

FontBook is fine, but I can't (and won't) use it - too many warnings from various sources about "too many fonts" clogging it up.

Suitcase 10 and X1 - I tried, i REALLY tryed, to get Suitcase to work. I gave up. I found myself trashing the prefs files every other week (not easy: http://www.extensis.com/en/support/kb_article.jsp?articleNumber=2191), and I got tired of re-creating my sets all the time, not to mention the HORRID lag time for previewing/activating fonts (ten minutes to auto-open three fonts is not workable). Extensis was absolutely NO help on my issues, though I must admit they DID try (after 3.5 hours on hold).

I haven't tried FontAgent yet, kinda lurking here to see opinions....

I've been using FontReserve for a couple of months now; I give it props for A) its speed at opening new fonts, and B) its general stability so far. But I absolutely HATE the interface. It sucks. It looks like something from 1992. And its supposed to, from what Extensis told me ("our existing customers are comfortable with it"... bull.) It's also a PAIN to preview fonts (separate windows, one-at-a-time). I've really had to rely on my font memory (and myFonts.com's WhatTheFont) to call up fonts by name, a little less painful 'cuz the "find" is quick. AND it does auto-activate in Illustrator & Quark, but it occasionally misfires.

I still waiting.... waiting for 1) Apple to step up and redesign the font manager to accomodate us typophiles; OR 2) Extensis to get up of its lazy *&%$! and put some mooney into R&D instead of packaging; OR 3) Some visionary out there to create the ultimate font manager for OS X (Jim Lewis, whither art thou?).

ElyseC
03-16-2005, 01:52 PM
(Jim Lewis, whither art thou?).You said a mouthful! Anyone know what he's up to these days? At one time we both worked with the same freelance client out in Orange County, CA and ran into each other every so often, but I long ago lost track of him.

ElyseC
03-16-2005, 01:54 PM
Adobe did not develop ATM Deluxe for OS X. I can (and do) use it in Classic for OS 9 apps that I still use, but it doesn’t work for OS X.

If it did, I would use it.If Adobe happens to be listening, I would, too. It is sorely missed.

Shane Stanley
03-16-2005, 03:45 PM
So that’s where they are! Um — which are required? I see one folder marked Rqrd; is that all that must remain?

Yep. I even found some in there that preobably aren't really required.

Well, I have tried to “just get along” but when it comes to fonts, I simply can’t. I never know what’s going on, and I really, seriously loathe wading through long font lists on a job that uses exactly six fonts!

In InDesign, Command-6 will take you to the Control palette with the font name highlighted; start typing, and use the cursor keys.

Shane

ktinkel
03-16-2005, 04:28 PM
In InDesign, Command-6 will take you to the Control palette with the font name highlighted; start typing, and use the cursor keys.
But that isn’t always useful to me. Alas.

I would rather control the in-flow of fonts than live with the organic ebb and flow as computers devise it! <g>

Michael Rowley
03-16-2005, 04:44 PM
KT:

‘seriously irritating’

Yes, after ATM Deluxe it must be.

It was difficult to find any article on the Web describing Adobe’s abandonment of ATM Deluxe for the Mac: I eventually found one only. Although Adobe's decision may appear rational, in the light of the graphics profession attachment to the Mac (and to Adobe products), it may turn out to be short-sighted.

Cristen Gillespie
03-19-2005, 06:47 PM
I haven't had any lag in activating fonts with Suitcase. 1-2 seconds, max. I do use sets--always did on Windows, and find it's the only way I can keep my sanity when picking/using fonts for a project. But I'll agree that I think font managers haven't done much in recent years to make themselves a pleasure to use.

ktinkel
03-20-2005, 11:03 AM
With nearly a gigabyte of fonts on my system, I still haven't solved this basic issue. It really has come down to being disciplined (read: constrained) and living with less.But I don’t wanna live with less [she whines!].

Suitcase 10 and X1 - I tried, i REALLY tryed, to get Suitcase to work. I gave up. I found myself trashing the prefs files every other week … not to mention the HORRID lag time for previewing/activating fonts (ten minutes to auto-open three fonts is not workable). …
I haven't tried FontAgent yet, kinda lurking here to see opinions....As soon as I get a chance, I will actually find a way to make Suitcase stop interfering and give FontAgent a chance.

I've been using FontReserve for a couple of months now; I give it props for A) its speed at opening new fonts, and B) its general stability so far. But I absolutely HATE the interface.I always hated its interface and the way it works. If nothing else pans out, I guess I will give it another try, but it is definitely on the bottom of the list for now.

… waiting for 1) Apple to step up and redesign the font manager to accomodate us typophiles; OR 2) Extensis to get up of its lazy *&%$! and put some mooney into R&D instead of packaging; OR 3) Some visionary out there to create the ultimate font manager for OS X (Jim Lewis, whither art thou?).Indeed. Where is Jim Lewis, anyway?

michelen
03-21-2005, 11:10 PM
KT,

I've tried them all, and I firmly believe that Font Agent Pro is the best font manager for OSX. They recently released version 3, which I have found to be much faster than previous versions, and auto-activation is faster and more stable.

IMHO, there isn't anything better for managing fonts under OSX. This is not a ringing endorsement, just advice from one user to another.

Best,
Michele

ktinkel
03-22-2005, 05:20 AM
I've tried them all, and I firmly believe that Font Agent Pro is the best font manager for OSX. They recently released version 3, which I have found to be much faster than previous versions, and auto-activation is faster and more stable.

IMHO, there isn't anything better for managing fonts under OSX. This is not a ringing endorsement, just advice from one user to another.It was your advice that led me to download Font Agent Pro, and although I haven’t really tested it (had to disentangle myself from Suitcase, which kept interfering even after I told it not to!), it certainly seems better behaved than Suitcase XI.

However, it is just as slow when it comes to manual activation of fonts, and I cannot figure out why. I am going to clean it out, then start over to see if it has mostly to do with the number of fonts I like to have available (but not necessarily active), some thousands of them.

But thank you very much for your comments on this. I really appreciate them.

Michael Rowley
03-22-2005, 07:48 AM
KT:

'it is just as slow when it comes to manual activation of fonts'

Possibly you are not comparing two things: ATM Deluxe (on Windows, anyway) starts activating the individual fonts of a font family as soon as you give it the instruction to activate the family, and you see it happening. It's fairly quick, but not instantaneous. Perhaps FontAgent etc. only give you a sign when the process is completed.

ktinkel
03-22-2005, 08:56 AM
Possibly you are not comparing two things: ATM Deluxe (on Windows, anyway) starts activating the individual fonts of a font family as soon as you give it the instruction to activate the family, and you see it happening. It's fairly quick, but not instantaneous. Perhaps FontAgent etc. only give you a sign when the process is completed.Maybe so. It causes a problem, though, because after a while one assumes the click didn’t “take” and clicks again, which (of course) cancels the original.

But it still may be the best possibility available. For now …

Michael Rowley
03-22-2005, 12:33 PM
KT:

'after a while one assumes the click didn’t “take” and clicks again'

You'll just have to learn to be patient . . .

ktinkel
03-22-2005, 01:47 PM
You'll just have to learn to be patient . . .Oh, no! Not that!!!

tphinney
03-23-2005, 06:39 PM
S'funny how people are so different. I always thought Font Reserve (Mac) had the most awesome interface. I fell in love with it when I first used it.

I've never understood why it is that there's some unwritten rule that Windows font managers have to be lame in comparison with Mac font managers. Even when it's the "same" product on both platforms, often the interface and functionality is radically different (at least that's true for ATM Deluxe and Font Reserve). gah.

Cheers,

T

scottleyes
03-23-2005, 08:48 PM
S'funny how people are so different. I always thought Font Reserve (Mac) had the most awesome interface. I fell in love with it when I first used it.
T

I probably over-stated my hatred of the interface -- it's not hard to use, but in this OS X/Aqua world, it looks like Font Reserve was made to run on a Mac Plus... grey, and plenty of it.

Actually, the one thing I DO like is FR's very quick "Find" feature. As long as I know (some of) the letters in the font's name, I can get to it/them very quickly.

ktinkel
03-24-2005, 06:01 AM
S'funny how people are so different. I always thought Font Reserve (Mac) had the most awesome interface. I fell in love with it when I first used it.I remember when you first met up with FontReserve! And I also remember that you really liked it, and were a great beta tester.

My problem was partly with the interface, and partly with its practice of copying all the fonts. I understand the usefulness of leaving the originals intact (but I already had a duplicate set that was read-only — if I had a problem with my working fonts, I would just copy over a good one). But I was also very happy with ATM Deluxe on the Mac, so of no mind to change.

Before that I used Suitcase; tried FontJuggler many times, but didn’t take to its interface.

I've never understood why it is that there's some unwritten rule that Windows font managers have to be lame in comparison with Mac font managers. Even when it's the "same" product on both platforms, often the interface and functionality is radically different (at least that's true for ATM Deluxe and Font Reserve). gah.Dunno. Most of the Windows people on the DTP Forum loved the shareware tool that became Bitstream Font Navigator — and only reluctantly moved to ATM Deluxe later, when they more or less had to.

But I do believe OS X has forced the Mac into lousy font management. It starts with too many useless fonts in too many stupid places!

If you have any extra clout at work, please tell them they need to bring back ATM Deluxe! Please. :-)

Franca
03-24-2005, 09:26 AM
Dunno. Most of the Windows people on the DTP Forum loved the shareware tool that became Bitstream Font Navigator — and only reluctantly moved to ATM Deluxe later, when they more or less had to.Yes - I still use Font Navigator. For me it was always more reliable than ATM Deluxe and far, far, easier to use. It does everything I've seen folks mention they'd like in a font management tool, without any fuss or confusion. Off the top of my head I can't think of anything about it that annoys me, or any feature that it's missing - at least for my lowly purposes. :) Plus, I love that it installs on the fly with Corel products, but that's just the icing on the cake. Even if it didn't do that it would still be the best in my book. I suffered a bit of heart flutter the first time I fired it up on XP Pro, but - like the Energizer bunny - it's still going!

Font management in Windows isn't merely a convenience; it's essential, IMO. I don't know how Macs deal with fonts if you don't use a font manager but Windows on its own is a terrible font manager - doesn't know what's good for itself most of the time - so it seems like any app that can whip fonts into shape on a Windows machine without breaking Windows can't be all bad. ;) ATM Deluxe and Font Navigator are the only two I've used. Much as I hated ATM Deluxe, I wouldn't exactly call it 'lame', and Font Navigator is anything but ... so if Thomas is still reading this thread I'd be really interested to know what he likes better about Mac font managers vs. Windows font managers. I've had no opportunity to compare. My father's Mac is the only one I've had my hands on in recent years and he definitely doesn't manage his fonts!

tphinney
03-24-2005, 10:06 AM
I remember when you first met up with FontReserve! And I also remember that you really liked it, and were a great beta tester.
I liked it so much I signed up to do their initial font classification database. That was before I went to Adobe, of course.

My problem was partly with the interface, and partly with its practice of copying all the fonts. I understand the usefulness of leaving the originals intact (but I already had a duplicate set that was read-only — if I had a problem with my working fonts, I would just copy over a good one). But I was also very happy with ATM Deluxe on the Mac, so of no mind to change.
The whole "vault"/duplication thing was made optional fairly early on. If you went with it, you had the option to only activate individual fonts, regardless of suitcases (another feature I loved).

If you have any extra clout at work, please tell them they need to bring back ATM Deluxe! Please. :-)
Hmmm. Well, I have been able to accomplish many things, but that one is almost certainly beyond my power. The powers that be understand that folks liked ATM Deluxe for Mac, but it is still the case that we have no current plans to resurrect it for OS X.

ktinkel
03-24-2005, 10:08 AM
The powers that be understand that folks liked ATM Deluxe for Mac, but it is still the case that we have no current plans to resurrect it for OS X.Boo-hoo! Sniffle. Woe is me. <g>

ElyseC
03-24-2005, 12:05 PM
Add my vote to KT's for bringing ATM Deluxe back.

I, like about everyone back then, started out with Suitcase, the only game in town. When I began beta testing Font Reserve I glommed right onto it, happily ditching Suitcase.

Then came the opportunity to beta test ATM Deluxe. I found it testy at first, but began liking it over Font Reserve. Now here I am in OSX and haven't yet committed to a font manager, but sure wish I could have ATM Deluxe back so I could just get back to work and let it do its job. After ATMD, all the others seem a lot more "worky" and, IMHO, a font manager should, well, actually do all the managing for me. Silly me, I know.

ktinkel
03-24-2005, 12:52 PM
After ATMD, all the others seem a lot more "worky" and, IMHO, a font manager should, well, actually do all the managing for me. Silly me, I know.If Adobe has no plans to develope ATM Deluxe, maybe they could sell it or give it to some small developer (not Extensis), let them take it on.

scottleyes
03-24-2005, 03:48 PM
Let's face it: the problem, dear friends, lies not in our fonts, but in Apple's Font Manager. We'll never be free of the cludgy workarounds until somebody in Cupertino wises up and realizes that the world will NEVER have a unified set of 50 fonts that EVERYBODY uses... so let's ditch the whole concept, keep a simple listing of typefaces on the hard disk, and let applications like Adobe Ilustrator go out and open the fonts when and if they need em. Embed the d*mn things in documents, like PDF does. Cycle thru hundreds of faces. Set every other letter in a new font. But stop limiting how many are "open" at a time. Stop "opening" them entirely... just access the glyphs when ya need to.

Unfortunately, I doubt that Apple's engineers have gone very far in the past few years - I still vividly remember the PostScript Level II rollout, where Apple's chief (read: only) programmer for their Print Driver still didn't understand why anyone would create a PageMaker (or other app's) document and want it to print to BOTH a LaserWriter AND an imagesetter. "Wouldn't you just create for one or the other?" he innocently asked, before we gave him a service-bureau tongue-lashing and educational epiphany.

ktinkel
03-24-2005, 04:31 PM
Let's face it: the problem, dear friends, lies not in our fonts, but in Apple's Font Manager. We'll never be free of the cludgy workarounds until somebody in Cupertino wises up and realizes that the world will NEVER have a unified set of 50 fonts that EVERYBODY uses... Oh, I do hope you are wrong, but fear you are right.

I think we need to invite some Apple font guys to this discussion. Got any suggestions of likely candidates? (My list is getting kind of hoary!).

scottleyes
03-25-2005, 09:23 AM
I think we need to invite some Apple font guys to this discussion. Got any suggestions of likely candidates? (My list is getting kind of hoary!).

MY list is likely underground by now.

Of course, whatever Apple does will likely be screwed up by MS/Longhorn, and we'll all be rushing to install "Redmond Webdings 07" on our systems to keep things relatively compatible... makes me wish the Bauhaus had suceeded in establishing a "universal" typeface.

Maybe an open letter/petition from graphic arts users (independent of any single company like Adobe) would instill some response. Or would we just be bitchin' in the wind?

ElyseC
03-25-2005, 10:22 AM
If Adobe has no plans to develope ATM Deluxe, maybe they could sell it or give it to some small developer (not Extensis), let them take it on.I wonder who might have the knowledge and interest. Hopefully they're out there and hearing the cries of people like us.

I hear Master Juggler is still going. Do you know anything of it? I've personally known only one MJ user all these years.

groucho
04-04-2005, 02:10 PM
<‘Mac OS X is a totally different operating system from OS 9.x and earlier’
--I know that (it's said to be based on Unix),>

OS/X is in fact a UNIX OS modeled partly on the NeXT computer, which also used a UNIX based OS. A Mac running OS/X is actually a UNIX computer running a Mac "emulator" layer on top of the actual UNIX OS.

You may also be aware there is a version of the Mac OS (another emulator, if you will) that runs on x86 software closely guarded inside Apple. But, apparently also leaked out as part of the "cherry" or "pear" OS which runs on Intel hardware at degraded speeds.

Apple has ensured that they are not reliant on any one source of CPU from any one vendor any more. Which also is why OS/X can be problematic--no emulator is ever perfect. Even a Mac emulator running on a Mac.<G>

Shane Stanley
04-04-2005, 03:34 PM
A Mac running OS/X is actually a UNIX computer running a Mac "emulator" layer on top of the actual UNIX OS.

There is no emulation involved, or anything like it; the Mac APIs sit atop the Unix layer. I know you're only trying to simplify, but to refer to emulation is to simplify to the point of misrepresenting.

You may also be aware there is a version of the Mac OS (another emulator, if you will) that runs on x86 software closely guarded inside Apple. But, apparently also leaked out as part of the "cherry" or "pear" OS which runs on Intel hardware at degraded speeds.

Apple is rumored to have OS X running on x86 hardware (and who knows what else), but that has no relation to the other emulators available for Intel processors. If they had so much as one line of code leaked from Apple, you can bet your bottom dollar there's be a posse of lawyers descending on the authors in a flash.

Shane