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don Arnoldy
03-14-2006, 09:35 PM
Folks-

It has been some time since our last "desert Island list" thread, so I figured I'd stir things up a bit....

At the school where I teach, we are trying to build a basic type vocabulary for our students. So, we are presenting them with 6 typefaces for each of 6 quarters.

I'm building the list, and I need some suggestions.

Here's what I've got:

Helvetica
Times
Gill Sans
Garamond
Bodoni
Clarendon

Franklin Gothic
Univers
Caslon
Futura
Brush Script
Palatino

Eurostile
Lubalin Graph
Benguiat
Optima
Avant Garde
Bookman

New Cent, Sch.
Courier
Baskerville
Caflisch Script
Copperplate
Snell Roundhand

Trebuchet
Verdana
Impact

I need 9 more--suggestions?

--don

iamback
03-14-2006, 11:41 PM
At the school where I teach, we are trying to build a basic type vocabulary for our students.What is meant with "basic type vocabulary"?

When I saw the subject, I expected something like a reference to the terminology used to describe fonts / type - words like "descender". Since I learned some typography but I learned in Dutch, I have forever trouble describing things. I can pretty well read the stuff in English (and, as I just found, even German) but I'm always at loss when I try to describe somethnig in English.

With your list of fonts, it doesn't seem like that is what you mean by "basic type vocabulary" - but then what?

And where would I find what I'm looking for?

ktinkel
03-15-2006, 05:32 AM
What is meant with "basic type vocabulary"?

And where would I find what I'm looking for?The late Robert Norton wrote a booklet for Microsoft called “A Disagreeably Facetious Type Glossary for the Amusement & Edification of People Beginning a Love Affair with Fonts (http://www.microsoft.com/typography/glossary/content.htm).”

It was originally a print booklet. I have many copies of that and if you were a bit closer, I would pop one in the mail for you. But the web version is quite good.

don Arnoldy
03-15-2006, 07:24 AM
What is meant with "basic type vocabulary"?Very much the same thing that is meant when we use "vocabulary" in the ordinary sense.

When one builds a verbal vocabulary, one acquires a collection of words that can be used to express oneself.

When a designer acquires a visual vocaulary, they acquire a collection of typefaces with which they are familiar, that they can use to express their message.

--don

iamback
03-15-2006, 09:58 AM
The late Robert Norton wrote a booklet for Microsoft called “A Disagreeably Facetious Type Glossary for the Amusement & Edification of People Beginning a Love Affair with Fonts (http://www.microsoft.com/typography/glossary/content.htm).”Excellent! And just the thing after a frustrating day with one of those installation chain reactions (I'm "just" going to install....) :)

iamback
03-15-2006, 09:58 AM
When a designer acquires a visual vocaulary, they acquire a collection of typefaces with which they are familiar, that they can use to express their message.Ah, thanks!

ktinkel
03-15-2006, 11:55 AM
Here's what I've got:

Helvetica
Times
Gill Sans
Garamond
Bodoni
Clarendon

Franklin Gothic
Univers
Caslon
Futura
Brush Script
Palatino

Eurostile
Lubalin Graph
Benguiat
Optima
Avant Garde
Bookman

New Cent, Sch.
Courier
Baskerville
Caflisch Script
Copperplate
Snell Roundhand

Trebuchet
Verdana
Impact

I need 9 more--suggestions?I’m not sure what to think about your list. It jumbles contemporary faces (whose names are literal and accurate) with fonts named for ancient type designers (whose names mean nothing at all).

Garamond, for example, might be worth a section all on its own. You could ask them to work with true Garamonds (Stempel, Adobe Garamond, and Sabon would be a good set of those), Jannon Garamond (Garamond No. 3), and ITC Garamond (either Jannon or utterly ITC, take your pick). That would encourage thinking about details and suitability to purpose.

Meanwhile, Clarendon, Bodoni, Caslon, Bookman, and Baskerville are not really type names at all (unless you are referring to specimens in Updike or old type sheets from the original foundries. There are astonishingly different-looking fonts in each of those groups, all bearing the original name.

I do note significant omissions:

Where are the Venetians (in their variety, including Golden Type, Centaur, Adobe Jenson, and for amusement’s sake, Italia)?

Century should be represented by something besides Schoolbook (and the original of that is also quite different from the ITC New version).

No slab serifs? There are quite a few of those, including Sumner Stone’s Silica, and several from the past. Noordzij’s PMN Caecelia is useful, too.

How about classical book faces, including Bembo (maybe contrasting it with Poliphilus); Plantin (and its supposed relationship to Times); a Kis/Janson; Didot and Walbaum, as well as Bodonis; Bell; Scotch Roman (compared to Carter’s Miller); etc.

Almost all of the fonts you mention were designed for foundry or hot metal, not digital type — will you get into the lightness and size-modeling problems inherent in most of these?

What about having contemporary fonts, designed for desktop digital applications? From Holland, France, Germany, and other places besides the U.S. and England. What about Frutiger? Matthew Carter? Sumner Stone? More from Zapf (at least compare Palatino with Aldus)? Font Bureau? (And looking back for a moment, no Goudy?)

For the web fonts, you should add Georgia to the list; it is the only widely available and easily readable serif face for the web so far. Adobe’s Minion Web is pretty good, but not widely distributed. Tahoma would be good, too, as a slightly narrower sans.

What about a range of sans-serif faces? There have been only something like 12,000 new ones since 1980 or so? <g>

Anyway, didn’t mean to be so long-winded. Your list looks very similar to the one used in 1974 in James Craig’s Designing With Type books, and still included in current editions. Most are not well suited to contemporary printing methods, and it is time to replace them with new fonts. IMHO.

don Arnoldy
03-15-2006, 12:56 PM
I’m not sure what to think about your list....
I do note significant omissions: ...
Anyway, didn’t mean to be so long-winded. Your list looks very similar to the one used in 1974 in James Craig’s Designing With Type books, and still included in current editions. Most are not well suited to contemporary printing methods, and it is time to replace them with new fonts.Which is why I asked!

--don

Norbert
03-16-2006, 09:27 AM
FYI -
James Craig has just finish publishing the latest edition of his Designing With Type, and is working on a companion web site (not just an update of his existing www.DesigningWithType.com (http://www.designingwithtype.com)).

He tells me that it reviews the last 40 years of type & typography.
Jim will be one of the key speakers during the "Type Education" sessions we are planning for TypeCon (http://www.typecon.com) Boston in August of 2006.

ktinkel
03-16-2006, 10:02 AM
FYI -
James Craig has just finish publishing the latest edition of his Designing With Type, and is working on a companion web site (not just an update of his existing www.DesigningWithType.com (http://www.designingwithtype.com)).

He tells me that it reviews the last 40 years of type & typography.
Jim will be one of the key speakers during the "Type Education" sessions we are planning for TypeCon (http://www.typecon.com) Boston in August of 2006.That’s good news. As a designer, I grew up with James Craig (from his books, I mean).

don Arnoldy
03-19-2006, 03:27 AM
Okay, I need to clarify what I am trying to accomplish—for myself as much as y’all.

Students come into our program knowing squat about type (for the most part)—they know Helvetica, Times, Comic Sans, Impact, and maybe Zapfino for “fancy” letters. It takes half of the first quarter before most of them can consistently distinguish among Times/Adobe Garamond/Bodoni or Helvetica/Gill Sans.

By the end of their 18-month program, I’d like them to be familiar with a body of typefaces that they will most likely need to recognize and use.

My bias is to give them mostly text faces—they seem to pick up display faces readily-enough on their own.

Based on KT's (and others') suggestions, i have amended the list :

Quarter 1
Helvetica (Neue?)
Times
Gill Sans
Adobe Garamond Premiere
ITC Bodoni Seventy-two (maybe Bauer would be better)
Clarendon

Quarter 2
Franklin Gothic
Univers
Adobe Caslon
Futura
Brush Script
Palatino

Quarter 3
Eurostile
Lubalin Graph
Benguiat
Optima
Avant Garde
Bookman

Quarter 4
Century
New Cent, Sch.
Courier
Baskerville
Italia
Caflisch Script
Copperplate
Snell Roundhand

Quarter 5
Centaur
Akzidenz Grotesk
Frutiger
Bembo
Avenir
Sabon

Quarter 6
Trebuchet
Verdana
Impact
Georgia
Tahoma
Minion

Which leaves the following fonts unused. Should I delete some of the above (Copperplate? Optima? Benguiat? Bookman? Eurostile?) to include any of the below?

Meta
Rotis
Trade Gothic
Adobe Jenson
Golden Type
Silica
PMN Caecelia
Plantin
Didot
Walbaum
Bell
Scotch Roman


Matthew Carter--I've got Verdana, Georgia, Tahoma, you said not to use New Century Schoolbook...something else I should include?
Sumner Stone--Stone sans, or something else?
More from Zapf?
Font Bureau?
Goudy?

Michael Rowley
03-19-2006, 07:28 AM
Don:

Speaking as someone that has difficulty in distinguishing anything other than seriffed from sans serif, wouldn't fewer typefaces be clearer? Someone like Simon (Introduction to Typography) had only about eighteen faces to illustrate differences in colour, x-height, length of ascenders and descenders, set, type of serifs; admittedly, he excluded sans serif. For the sans serif faces, probably only a few would be needed to illustrate the main features.

ktinkel
03-27-2006, 07:33 AM
By the end of their 18-month program, I’d like them to be familiar with a body of typefaces that they will most likely need to recognize and use.I have a few thoughts. I will use purple to add my comments to your list.

Quarter 1
Helvetica (Neue?) Sure; use Neue, with explanation.
Times
Gill Sans A bit odd, here and now. How about Frutiger?
Adobe Garamond Premiere
ITC Bodoni Seventy-two (maybe Bauer would be better)
I think you must at least discuss and show the range, just because the most common Bodoni fonts (plain old Bodoni from Lino and Adobe, say) are not very Bodoni-like at all, but we are used to it. Bauer is a beautiful freak (too light, but gorgeously hard to read in most settings). ITC Bodoni is more faithful and lovely but perhaps tricky to use. If you use other materials, Octavo has a CD version of the Bodoni Manuale that would be useful here.
Clarendon Quaint ;) — when did you last see this used?

Quarter 2
Franklin Gothic — Use the ITC versions
Univers
Adobe Caslon
Futura
Brush Script :eek:
Palatino

Quarter 3
Eurostile
Lubalin Graph
Benguiat
Optima
Avant Garde
Bookman

Quarter 4
Century
New Cent, Sch.
Courier
Baskerville
Italia
Caflisch Script
Copperplate
Snell Roundhand

Quarter 5
Centaur
Akzidenz Grotesk
Frutiger
Bembo
Avenir
Sabon

Quarter 6
Trebuchet
Verdana
Impact — Not widely supported
Georgia
Tahoma
Minion — Minion Web? Hard to find; probably waste of time.

Which leaves the following fonts unused. Should I delete some of the above (Copperplate? Optima? Benguiat? Bookman? Eurostile?) to include any of the below?

Meta
Rotis
Trade Gothic
Adobe Jenson
Golden Type
Silica
PMN Caecelia
Plantin
Didot
Walbaum
Bell
Scotch Roman

However, I would still be inclined to group the fonts in some logical way, put them in historic as well as pragmatic context.



Historic revivals: Centaur, Bembo, Garamond, Baskerville, Bodoni, Didot, Times, etc.
Workhorses from more recent times: 19th-C faces such as Century, Franklin Gothic, Scotch Roman; machine standbys, including most of the types still used for books, including Plantin, Walbaum, Bell — the fonts we inherited in mid-20th century.
1970s type, especially photo-fonts and the ad faces from ITC: Avant Garde, Souvenir, ITC Garamond, etc.
More recent fonts, many of them designed for digital production, trying to represent notable current producers, certainly mentioning Zapf, Frutiger, and some of the currently active designers: Peter Nordzi’s PMN Caecelia, and other Dutch faces; Erik Spiekerman’s Meta family; Sumner Stone’s Cycles and maybe Stone Print; Matthew Carter’s useful Miller family; Font Bureau’s Poynter or some other family from there.

Michael Rowley
03-27-2006, 02:36 PM
KT:

Minion Web? Hard to find; probably waste of time

Minion Web is not well known, but Minion is Adobe's flagship font, supplied to everyone that has an Adobe application (except the free ones).

(Purple prose! Ye gods!)

Gerry Kowarsky
03-27-2006, 06:52 PM
KT:
Minion is ... supplied to everyone that has an Adobe application (except the free ones).

The free ones, too. Under a default installation of Acrobat 7 under Windows, look in C:\Program Files\Adobe\Acrobat 7.0\Resource\Font.

iamback
03-27-2006, 09:59 PM
The free ones, too. Under a default installation of Acrobat 7 under Windows, look in C:\Program Files\Adobe\Acrobat 7.0\Resource\Font.Gosh - indeedy, I have four MinionSomething files there (all Minion Pro)! Couple of Myriad Pro, Courier Std and a single Adobe Pi Std as well. Also three (1999) .PFB outlines (with metrics in a PFM subdir), only one of which (a rather ugly Symbol font) can be opened with a double-click (via ATM) though.

Thanks for the hint!

Michael Rowley
03-28-2006, 10:02 AM
Gerry:

The free ones, too. Under a default installation of Acrobat 7 . . .

I wouldn't call Acrobat free; but perhaps you mean Acrobat Reader. I've got that too, but as several Adobe programs that I have also come with Minion Pro (and other fonts), I don't notice any extra ones.

Gerry Kowarsky
03-28-2006, 10:17 AM
Yes. I meant Adobe Reader.

Michael Rowley
03-28-2006, 01:56 PM
Gerry:

The Minion Pro font is where you said it should be, but that's a sub-folder of Acrobat 7, not of Reader, which is in another sub-folder of Acrobat 7 that hasn't got a Resource sub-folder. That might be because I installed Acrobat 7 before Acrobat Reader 7.

It would be very good if fonts were supplied with Acrobat Reader 7, because then most people would have Minion Pro (if, that is, they had updated Acrobat Reader: a lot haven't, and I don't make Acrobat files that can't be opened with Acrobat Reader 3).

Franca
03-28-2006, 02:23 PM
Brush Script :eek:LOL! His face isn't purple, but somehow I knew he was your addition. :twisted: I'm afraid I'm not a fan of any of the brushy scripty faces; fortunately I've never needed to use one. Is there one you like?

Gerry Kowarsky
03-28-2006, 02:32 PM
I do not have full Acrobat 7, just Adobe Reader 7.

ktinkel
03-28-2006, 04:31 PM
LOL! His face isn't purple, but somehow I knew he was your addition. :twisted: I'm afraid I'm not a fan of any of the brushy scripty faces; fortunately I've never needed to use one. Is there one you like?Not guilty. I appreciate a lot of scripts, and can imagine finding a use for Brush, but I would not choose that as an exemplar for students — there are lots of better ones.

Franca
03-28-2006, 05:01 PM
OIC - sorry! Well, what would you choose instead?

iamback
03-28-2006, 08:48 PM
It would be very good if fonts were supplied with Acrobat Reader 7, because then most people would have Minion Pro (if, that is, they had updated Acrobat Reader: a lot haven't, and I don't make Acrobat files that can't be opened with Acrobat Reader 3).Well, I "have" Minion Pro (etc.) as indicated but since it's only sitting in Acrobat Reader's subdirectory, it doesn't seem to be "installed" - which implies that only Acrobat Reader can make use of it and specifying it in a web page for instance won't work. People would have to find the fonts first and then manually install them. But even I needed the hint here to find them in the first place!

Franca
03-29-2006, 12:56 AM
People would have to find the fonts first and then manually install them. But even I needed the hint here to find them in the first place!That's what your font management program is for. ;) I periodically have Font Navigator "find fonts" on my system so that I can remove them from all of their hiding places scattered across my system and drop them into my fonts folder where I can keep proper track of them. Your font manager must do the same, yes?

In fact, I just got myself in a spot of trouble after my latest font reorg ... didn't realize that my old Acrobat 5.0.5 insists on having Courier in its own fonts folder in order to distill PRN files successfully - whether or not Courier is even used in the documents to be distilled. (It isn't - not ever.) Such silliness. Had to put Courier back and now all is right in DistillerWorld.

iamback
03-29-2006, 02:58 AM
That's what your font management program is for. ;)If you have one. Most people don't! Not even if they have downloaded Adobe Reader (or even had it pre-installed). So you cannot count on those fonts being installed even if most people do have Acrobat Reader installed.

Unfortunately my favorite font management program (The Font Thing) recognizes only .TTF files. But everything else (that I can afford - and I do believe I've tried everything free or reasonably-priced shareware) has such a clunky interface that I won't use them (except (rarely) Fontlister which does 'see' OpenType fonts). TFT in 'Browse' mode (tab) looks where you point it to, optionally including subdirectories.

Gerry Kowarsky
03-29-2006, 05:05 AM
Well, I "have" Minion Pro (etc.) as indicated but since it's only sitting in Acrobat Reader's subdirectory, it doesn't seem to be "installed" - which implies that only Acrobat Reader can make use of it and specifying it in a web page for instance won't work. People would have to find the fonts first and then manually install them. But even I needed the hint here to find them in the first place!

Your reply prompted me to look up the Adobe Reader End User License Agreement (http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/acrreula.html). It says, "As long as you comply with the terms of this Software License Agreement (this "Agreement"), Adobe grants to you a non-exclusive license to Use the Software for the purposes described in the Documentation." The "Software" is defined earlier as including the fonts, so if the documentation is silent on installing the fonts, perhaps that use is not intended or authorized.

iamback
03-29-2006, 07:06 AM
Your reply prompted me to look up the Adobe Reader End User License Agreement (http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/acrreula.html). It says, "As long as you comply with the terms of this Software License Agreement (this "Agreement"), Adobe grants to you a non-exclusive license to Use the Software for the purposes described in the Documentation." The "Software" is defined earlier as including the fonts, so if the documentation is silent on installing the fonts, perhaps that use is not intended or authorized.Interesting - but the next paragraph states "2.1 General Use. You may install and Use a copy of the Software on your compatible computer, up to the Permitted Number of computers." (which seems to suggest you can install the included fonts since they are part of the software) while "the Documentation" isn't clear about "purposes" let alone included fonts at all - I found only repeated mention of the possibility to download referenced but not embedded fonts (such as Asian fonts).

So what _is_ the purpose of the included fonts, and can they be installed or not? Darned if I can figure that out...

Norbert
03-29-2006, 08:04 AM
By the end of their 18-month program, I’d like them to be familiar with a body of typefaces that they will most likely need to recognize and use.

I've been mulling over this thread a little bit, and the fact that you've titled it "Basic Type Vocabulary" is terribly poignant.

Just as our contemporary language skills have literally and literarily dimished to common clichés, "business-speak/marketingspeak/technospeak", useless and unnecessary acronyms and initialisms, and "headline-news" expressions, our commitment in promoting subtler, deeper and richer visual/written/oral vocabularies is being met more and more by dulled eyes and i-Pod deafened ears.

Languages and vocabularies are dynamic, evolving, colliding, conflicting, ceremonial/ritualistic, political, etc., and have and always will greatly impact how and what we are able to communicate.

Back in the pre-digital days, access to typeface and typesetting itself was generally limited to professions, trades and industries involved with publication, advertising, printing, journalism and business and academic communications.

Today, without a doubt, there are more people using "fonts" on a day-to-day basis than anyone (except, maybe Bill Gates) could ever have imagined. And like contemporary language vocabulary, the "lists" and "usage rules" are constantly and rapidly changing.

I'm not exactly sure how to teach type selection/specifying skills to young designers today, since I'm not sure how significant and for how long any guidelines would be. Part of my own training was EXTREMELY traditional and formal, while a good part was aesthetic/experimental/explorational/creative problem solving.

Perhaps it is good enough to give students enough "type ammo" to "shoot themselves in the foot" (you must understand the old expression as being a way of teaching and not of malicious feeling). Then perhaps they come back to revisit the work or exercise as coming up short creatively.

I hope you will excuse this ramble as I do not wish to hijack the topic thread.
I do aplaud any attempt at improving the "type-eyes" and minds of students and young designers.

In respect, I will try to pick up on concerns about teaching type and typography in another topic thread.

Michael Rowley
03-29-2006, 12:17 PM
Franca:

That's what your font management program is for

I'm not sure that Windows XP will find all TTF file for you, but I don't think it will find Type 1 or OTF files, even though it supports both. The trouble is, many people don't look for OTF files (as a font manager will), and Minion Pro etc. are supplied as OTF files and are placed where many people wouldn't look.

Franca
03-29-2006, 12:53 PM
I was really just teasing you after our font manager discussion in the other thread. ;) I don't know anything about Open Type but Font Navigator finds both T1 and TTF. A font manager that only found TTF unfortunately wouldn't be of any use to me.

Gerry Kowarsky
03-29-2006, 04:39 PM
So what _is_ the purpose of the included fonts, and can they be installed or not? Darned if I can figure that out...

I am no better at construing EULAs than the next person, but it seems reasonable to suppose that the the fonts would have been installed, not just placed in a directory, if they were meant to be available for general use. My guess is that the fonts are there to enable the Reader to correctly display documents containing Minion Pro, Myriad Pro, etc., even if the fonts are not embedded.

ktinkel
03-29-2006, 05:06 PM
I am no better at construing EULAs than the next person, but it seems reasonable to suppose that the the fonts would have been installed, not just placed in a directory, if they were meant to be available for general use. My guess is that the fonts are there to enable the Reader to correctly display documents containing Minion Pro, Myriad Pro, etc., even if the fonts are not embedded.Do you think Adobe is using those in lieu of Adobe Sans MM and Adobe Serif MM?

In any event, it is sort of silly: Those of us who use fonts regularly are accustomed to dragging them out of their hidey-holes and placing them under the governance of font managers. EULA be damned, sort of — they are written in such tiny type and delivered with such nonchalance that it never occurs to many of us to even try to read them.

No?

Gerry Kowarsky
03-29-2006, 09:07 PM
Do you think Adobe is using those in lieu of Adobe Sans MM and Adobe Serif MM?

If by Adobe, you mean the reader software, no. If you mean Adobe the company, yes. I think in their corporate documents, they would rather have Minion and Myriad display as intended and the avoid substitution fonts.
In any event, it is sort of silly: Those of us who use fonts regularly are accustomed to dragging them out of their hidey-holes and placing them under the governance of font managers. EULA be damned, sort of — they are written in such tiny type and delivered with such nonchalance that it never occurs to many of us to even try to read them.

No?
What individuals do is one thing. What large companies do is another. A corporation would put itself in an extremely vulnerable position if it chose to make the fonts bundled with Adobe Reader available for general use on hundreds or thousands of desktops. All it would take to put the company in dire straits is one report from a disgruntled ex-employee. Responsible companies would never run the risk of violating an EULA. The potential losses are much too great.

ktinkel
03-30-2006, 05:11 AM
A corporation would put itself in an extremely vulnerable position if it chose to make the fonts bundled with Adobe Reader available for general use on hundreds or thousands of desktops. All it would take to put the company in dire straits is one report from a disgruntled ex-employee. Responsible companies would never run the risk of violating an EULA. The potential losses are much too great.Well, of course. But an ambiguous EULA doesn’t help anyone.

That is, if they want people to leave the fonts where they put them, why not say so in so many words in the EULA?

Gerry Kowarsky
03-30-2006, 06:39 AM
That is, if they want people to leave the fonts where they put them, why not say so in so many words in the EULA?

Hmmm. I have to think about this...

Suppose the license explicitly prohibited installing the fonts for use by programs other than the Reader. I foresee two possible results:

Explicitly discouraging the unwanted behavior might actually encourage it. More people might find out the fonts are there and install them in spite of the prohibition. Why bring attention to something that isn't likely to happen very often if the license remains opaque?
The explicit prohibition might irritate people who use fonts regularly and have font management software. It might be better to let the license remain murky than to make people angry, especially if your real concern is the compliance of corporations rather than the small number of individuals who find out about the fonts and haven't already obtained them in a Creative Suite bundle.
I wonder if any of the default job options for creating PDFs in Acrobat 7 put the bundled fonts on the Never Embed list. That would that support idea that the fonts are included with the Reader to eliminate the need to embed them.

ktinkel
03-30-2006, 07:33 AM
Suppose the license explicitly prohibited installing the fonts for use by programs other than the Reader. I foresee two possible results:


Explicitly discouraging the unwanted behavior might actually encourage it. . . .
The explicit prohibition might irritate people who use fonts regularly and have font management software.
I wonder if any of the default job options for creating PDFs in Acrobat 7 put the bundled fonts on the Never Embed list. After some 20 minutes of studying the program and its Help file, I am none the wiser about any of this.

I object generally to your numbers 1 and 2, however — font vagrancy laws! Too cynical for my tender sensibilities. :rolleyes:

Gerry Kowarsky
03-30-2006, 09:26 AM
I object generally to your numbers 1 and 2, however — font vagrancy laws! Too cynical for my tender sensibilities. :rolleyes:

I don't particularly like them, either. I'm just speculating about the reasons for doing something I don't think I would do myself.

Michael Rowley
03-30-2006, 11:21 AM
Gerry:

put the bundled fonts on the Never Embed list

All the Adobe fonts in question have 'editable embedding allowed', with the standard explanation of what that means. I believe it is Adobe policy to allow editable embedding, and to recommend that designers should allow at least viewable & printable embedding. For years Adobe has been providing at least those fonts with programs that have to be paid for, so supplying them in addition with the free reader doesn't seem much of a change in policy. It is probably not a coincidence that Minion and Myriad have also been modified for web use.

As far as I know, Adobe never puts its font files in other than an application's sub-folder.

PeterArnel
09-23-2006, 11:15 AM
Don
I am not a teacher - but I wonder whether u should have similar typefaces in each set - so they can compare the differences - this will enable the spot the real differences - other wise they met get overwhelmed -

don Arnoldy
09-23-2006, 03:59 PM
...I wonder whether u should have similar typefaces in each setWith students who have never even really thought about type before, it is hard-enough for them to distinguish Times New Roman from Palatino or Helvetica from Gill Sans. If I started out by giving them Avant Garde, Futura, Univers, and Gill Sans, they'd melt down.

This is a cumulative process, so that at the end of the year-and-a-half, they should be able to distinguish between similar typefaces.

ElyseC
09-24-2006, 01:30 PM
With students who have never even really thought about type before, it is hard-enough for them to distinguish Times New Roman from Palatino or Helvetica from Gill Sans. If I started out by giving them Avant Garde, Futura, Univers, and Gill Sans, they'd melt down.

This is a cumulative process, so that at the end of the year-and-a-half, they should be able to distinguish between similar typefaces.In some ways it's a pity no one hand renders headlines as used to be done in making marker comps for clients. You learn very quickly to spot subtle differences between fonts when you're repeatedly tracing glyphs. I used to be pretty good at rendering my favorite fonts without reference, simply because I'd spent hours bent over a Lucigraph tracing them onto layouts.

At one point vintage DTP Forum member Greg Swann created a nifty little quiz app that went through all the fonts on your system (MacOS) and displayed a few characters at a time, so you could practice identifying them. It was a fun little thing, something I sometimes cranked up when I was stuck waiting on phone hold or wanted a brief distraction.

donmcc
09-25-2006, 04:43 AM
Don

Have you seen the trading card series at fonts.com. I've always thought they would be a good adjunct to a type course.

The other Don

iamback
09-25-2006, 04:56 AM
In some ways it's a pity no one hand renders headlines as used to be done in making marker comps for clients. You learn very quickly to spot subtle differences between fonts when you're repeatedly tracing glyphs.Basically, that's how I learned about fonts and differences between fonts: we had to design posters and things, hand-drawing the fonts (or drawing them and cutting them out from colored paper), using Letraset catalogs and such as examples. You really get an eye for the shapes when you have to re-create them! (It's that process that made me a lover of Futura.)

don Arnoldy
09-25-2006, 08:33 AM
Have you seen the trading card series...Yes. they're terrific. They don't display enough characters for my purposes. But now that you've reminded me of them--I may print them out big as wall posters.

ElyseC
09-25-2006, 10:47 AM
Basically, that's how I learned about fonts and differences between fonts: we had to design posters and things, hand-drawing the fonts (or drawing them and cutting them out from colored paper), using Letraset catalogs and such as examples. You really get an eye for the shapes when you have to re-create them! (It's that process that made me a lover of Futura.)Yes, indeed you do.

I still have an early 1980s Letraset, Formaline and a couple of other transfer type catalogs. I refuse to part with them! Seems they're called upon at least two or three times a year to research something I remember or think I remember, but can't remember a name to. :)