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ktinkel
03-04-2006, 01:17 PM
The online type world is muttering that Microsoft Vista will have two rendering engines: Avalon and GDI, and that only GDI will be able to work with Type 1 fonts.

If this is true, what does it mean? How will it affect type-using apps in Windows?

And what is the rationale for having two (competing?) rendering systems?

dthomsen8
03-04-2006, 03:06 PM
The online type world is muttering that Microsoft Vista will have two rendering engines: Avalon and GDI, and that only GDI will be able to work with Type 1 fonts.

If this is true, what does it mean? How will it affect type-using apps in Windows?

And what is the rationale for having two (competing?) rendering systems?

KT: Oh, tell us more. Especially those of us who don't know what rendering engine is being used by Microsoft now.

I am supposing that the rendering engine provides the type display services for browsers, but I don't even know if all browsers on Windows computers use the same rendering engines, or how Firefox or Netscape uses a rendering engine from MS.

Michael Rowley
03-04-2006, 04:36 PM
KT:

'And what is the rationale for having two (competing?) rendering systems?'

I thought Thomas Phinney explained it quite well: GDI is used for Windows XP, and supports T1 fonts; Avalon doesn't (but suppports OTF); but it will be some time before applications stop using GDI, and these will continue to 'see' T1 fonts.

It's obvious that the writing's on the wall for T1 fonts: I hope that Quark XPress 7 will be able to do all the things InDesign can do with OpenType fonts, otherwise it will eventually follow T1 fonts to the scrapheap.

Gerry Kowarsky
03-04-2006, 05:12 PM
I hope that Quark XPress 7 will be able to do all the things InDesign can do with OpenType fonts

Ascender's Web site (http://www.ascendercorp.com/pr/pr2006_02_01.html) suggests this will be the case.

Gerry Kowarsky
03-04-2006, 05:35 PM
only GDI will be able to work with Type 1 fonts.

On the other hand, under Avalon (now called Windows Presentation Foundation (http://www.microsoft.com/products/expression/en/wpf/default.mspx)) ClearType will support both the TrueType and PostScript flavors of OpenType.

ktinkel
03-04-2006, 06:04 PM
On the other hand, under Avalon (now called Windows Presentation Foundation (http://www.microsoft.com/products/expression/en/wpf/default.mspx)) ClearType will support both the TrueType and PostScript flavors of OpenType.I guess my question would relate to the potential effect on, say, a designer, typesetter, or other sort of desktop publisher. Will this interfere with applications and their use of type.

You know I know nothing at all about Windows, but I was just struck by something that seems likely to cause problems.

ktinkel
03-04-2006, 06:05 PM
KT: Oh, tell us more. Especially those of us who don't know what rendering engine is being used by Microsoft now.If I knew more, I would say. But this is way beyond me.

I just wondered how this would affect typesetters and designers who use Windows.

Gerry Kowarsky
03-05-2006, 10:03 AM
I was just struck by something that seems likely to cause problems.

Agreed, but the snazzy features of applications that exploit Windows Presentation Foundation (http://www.microsoft.com/products/expression/en/wpf/default.mspx) (such as the forthcoming Microsoft Expression (http://www.microsoft.com/products/expression/en/default.mspx)) are easier to find out about than limitations and coexistence issues. I was pleased to learn that Windows Presentation Foundation will support OpenType layout features, but I haven't been able to verify that this support will be available in the next version of Microsoft Office.

Michael Rowley
03-05-2006, 11:09 AM
KT:

'I know nothing at all about Windows'

Most Windows users (like me) don't know much about Windows either, we just use it, the same as you just use Mac OS 10.

The Phinney blog that I referred to before was dated October 5 last year, and here is an extract of a relevant part of it:

"So, what does it mean that Avalon won't support Type 1? It means that if you have an application that is written to take advantage of Avalon - on either XP or Longhorn - installed Type 1 fonts will not show up in that application's font menus. Note that no applications today use Avalon; an application has to be written specifically to take advantage of Avalon. "Now, GDI (Graphics Device Interface) is the main predecessor to Avalon, and it's through GDI that Type 1 is supported in Windows today, and will continue to be under Windows Vista. Existing and future GDI applications installed on XP or Vista will continue to use Type 1 fonts as they always have. Also, Adobe applications that use our own shared font engine can continue to support Type 1 regardless of Avalon or other OS support.

"So, when we talk about Type 1 support going away, it's more accurate to talk about Type 1 not being supported in Avalon. After all, Avalon can be installed on XP, and Vista continues to support Type 1 in GDI, so saying that Windows Vista won't support Type 1 is not exactly true. Now that you understand all this, you can have the fun of explaining it all to other folks, as I do."


Windows will continue to have a rasterizer for Type 1 fonts, just as Mac 10 has: neither needs ATM. It will go on having it, but for the snazzy effects you can get from suitable OpenType fonts, Windows users will need Avalon, which doesn't support Type 1.

annc
03-05-2006, 11:27 AM
Agreed, but the snazzy features of applications that exploit Windows Presentation Foundation (http://www.microsoft.com/products/expression/en/wpf/default.mspx) (such as the forthcoming Microsoft Expression (http://www.microsoft.com/products/expression/en/default.mspx)) Had a look at that, and it seems that Microsoft are unaware of the difference between a graphic designer and a graphic artist.

No page layout tools in the Graphic Design module at all – just bitmap and vector drawing tools.

ktinkel
03-05-2006, 11:56 AM
The Phinney blog that I referred to before was dated October 5 last year, and here is an extract of a relevant part of it:

"So, what does it mean that Avalon won't support Type 1? It means that if you have an application that is written to take advantage of Avalon - on either XP or Longhorn - installed Type 1 fonts will not show up in that application's font menus. Note that no applications today use Avalon; an application has to be written specifically to take advantage of Avalon. "Now, GDI (Graphics Device Interface) is the main predecessor to Avalon, and it's through GDI that Type 1 is supported in Windows today, and will continue to be under Windows Vista. Existing and future GDI applications installed on XP or Vista will continue to use Type 1 fonts as they always have. Also, Adobe applications that use our own shared font engine can continue to support Type 1 regardless of Avalon or other OS support."
Thanks. That is pretty clear.

Michael Rowley
03-05-2006, 01:45 PM
Ann:

'the difference between a graphic designer and a graphic artist'

Er . . . what is the difference precisely?

'No page layout tools in the Graphic Design module at all'

Perhaps you have to look deeper than the 'Graphic Design module'; page layout tools are mentioned somewhere, but I was a bit flummoxed by all the Microsoft double Dutch.

Gerry Kowarsky
03-05-2006, 05:57 PM
Had a look at that, and it seems that Microsoft are unaware of the difference between a graphic designer and a graphic artist.

No page layout tools in the Graphic Design module at all – just bitmap and vector drawing tools.

They certainly seem more concerned with the Web than print.

Steve Rindsberg
03-05-2006, 06:54 PM
Print? What is this "print"?

-- W. Gates

Gerry Kowarsky
03-05-2006, 07:11 PM
Print? What is this "print"?

-- W. Gates

Nice!