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Michael Rowley
02-17-2006, 12:24 PM
It is well know that MS Word can embed TrueType fonts, but not Type 1 fonts. The ostensible reason for that is that T1 fonts lack the information about possible embedding restrictions. But now T1-flavoured OT fonts have that information, but still Word won't embed them.

In the assumption that Word doesn't even try to embed fonts with the OTF extension, I converted several OTFs to TTFs, and tried embedding. It didn't seem to work. So my question is, have anyone the same experience? And, for OT-savvy types, is the embedding information not included in any OT table, but additional to the OT tables?

Steve Rindsberg
02-17-2006, 08:58 PM
It may or may not be an OT vs TT issue.

Are the needed embeddability characteristics set in the converted TTF?

If the font's not marked as embeddable, it won't be, I wouldn't think.

Michael Rowley
02-18-2006, 08:07 AM
Steve:

'Are the needed embeddability characteristics set in the converted TTF?'

Yes, at least in a font converted by TransType 3 for Windows. You can read the embedding restrictions in Microsoft's property extensions (you've got that, haven't you?); the restrictions in the OTF and the corresponding TTF differ though: for instance, 'editable' embedding in the OTF goes down to 'viewable & printable' in the TTF.

' If the font's not marked as embeddable'

Precisely: and if it's marked as embeddable it should behave like a normal TTF, but it doesn't, apparently.

I tried out a document in which I had used Minion Pro TTF, which had been converted from the OTF. As it had a lot of ligatures an OS figures, if the correct font was not seen by the viewer, there'd be a lot of those rectangles; I made sure embedding was 'on' in Word (and even checked the size of the file, which is a giveaway for successful embedding), and sent it to a colleague. Result: the colleague saw lots of rectangles and TNR!

Steve Rindsberg
02-18-2006, 07:23 PM
>>Yes, at least in a font converted by TransType 3 for Windows. You can read the embedding restrictions in Microsoft's property extensions (you've got that, haven't you?);

Yes.

>>the restrictions in the OTF and the corresponding TTF differ though: for instance, 'editable' embedding in the OTF goes down to 'viewable & printable' in the TTF.

I'm not sure how Word handles this ... embedding that in PowerPoint would give you a file that could be opened Read-Only at the other end unless they also had that font installed (unlikely in this case). But it should still usable for viewing/printing, of course. And from your description, it's not working.

Hard to say whether it's a failure at the embedding end or the font translation end, though. Aren't these "black box" problems fun?

Michael Rowley
02-19-2006, 06:48 AM
Steve:

'I'm not sure how Word handles this'

Oh, the in the same way as it handles embedding generally: with the 'printable' restriction, the file opens read-only, i.e. you can read the document on-screen or on paper, but nothing can be changed. Adobe recognizes the same restrictions (at least, in its OTFs), but T1 fonts have none, so TransType puts one in when it changes a T1 font (or OTF) to a TTF font.

What TransType does, apart from changing the T1 outlines to TTF outlines, is provide T1 font files with the tables that are necessary to an OT font; TTF fonts already have them. What I don't know, is where the embedding instructions are kept. Word obviously does not (or will not?) find them in an OTF font, althogh the extended-properties program does.

It's very annoying. I maintain up-to-date copies of our (voluminous) rules, which are available as PDFs on our web site. But the office likes to quote them to people occasionally, so it has the Word files too. But because it can't print the original Word files (which use Minion), I have to make another set with a font the office has.

Steve Rindsberg
02-19-2006, 03:53 PM
>>It's very annoying. I maintain up-to-date copies of our (voluminous) rules, which are available as PDFs on our web site. But the office likes to quote them to people occasionally, so it has the Word files too. But because it can't print the original Word files (which use Minion), I have to make another set with a font the office has.

I'm missing something here. If they want to print the document or portions of it, can't they do so from the PDF using Reader? And if quoting by email or some other means, aren't they dealing with plain ASCII text? In other words, copy/paste from Reader or Word (though the font might not be quite right as they see it, it wouldn't matter at the other end)?

Or are they part of that horrible tribe that insists on communicating over email with attached Word documents?

Michael Rowley
02-20-2006, 07:11 AM
Steve:

'If they want to print the document or portions of it, can't they do so from the PDF using Reader?'

They want it printed in the association's journal, so the 'copy' would be a Word file. Copying substantial quotations from PDF is a no-no , unless you're prepared to remove all the paragraph marks from the end of every line, and anyway, we don't pay our staff to do that.

Steve Rindsberg
02-20-2006, 01:59 PM
>>They want it printed in the association's journal,

Ah, quoted in that sense. Yes, best to stick with Word for that. Wouldn't the simplest thing then be to look into a site license for the font so everyone has a copy?

Michael Rowley
02-20-2006, 03:13 PM
Steve:

'Wouldn't the simplest thing then be to look into a site license for the font so everyone has a copy?'

That would be the simplest thing. But our General Secretary is a very careful type with money, and he's not averse to my fiddling with 'exotic' fonts, he's not keen on buying them. We're both board members, but he's a salaried member, responsible for administration, and I'm not.

I've checked the Microsoft Knowledge Base, and it confirms that an OFT font doesn't embed fonts as far as Office is concerned. It also says that a TrueType font embeds (with the appropriate permission). I'm not completely sure that minionpro.ttf doesn't embed, so I'll put up a small document so forum member can test it, if they will.