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View Full Version : Help! My WinNT\Fonts count is up!


Michael Rowley
02-04-2006, 08:07 AM
After several days, when Steve's excellent FontWatch count of the number of fonts in WinNT\Fonts had stayed steady at 45, it has suddenly risen to 152 !

I have no obvious explanation of this, but perhaps someone can provide one.

Steve Rindsberg
02-04-2006, 10:36 AM
Mr. Rowley, the idea was that you were to watch the count carefully and note what you were doing immediately prior to any changes. ;-)

Seriously, though ... can you pin the increase down to any specific time?

Michael Rowley
02-04-2006, 12:03 PM
Mr Rindberg, sir:

'Mr. Rowley, the idea was that you were to watch the count carefully and note what you were doing immediately prior to any changes'

I cannot tel a lie: I admit my guilt. But after Windows' having left my fonts in peace for a fortnight, I lowered my vigilance last night and turned FontWatch off.

I think the increse occurred last night, but I can't think of any program I haven't used before without any increase. Do you think there is something sentient (and malevolent!) in Windows?

Steve Rindsberg
02-05-2006, 06:20 PM
Ah. So you think it might be a case of Windows Watching FontWatch? Who Watches the Watchman and all that?

The thought plickens ....

It makes you wonder whether it's safe to turn your back on it.

Staws, Grasping At:

Was there a reboot before the Font Bloat?

Franca
02-05-2006, 09:12 PM
It's never safe to turn your back on Windows.

iamback
02-05-2006, 11:05 PM
It's never safe to turn your back on Windows.Oh, I do - but then I sleep with it - maybe that helps? Uptimes of over 10 days before a reboot are no exception.

Michael Rowley
02-06-2006, 07:43 AM
Steve:

'Was there a reboot before the Font Bloat?'

I usually switch off using 'Hibernate', but at least once a week I choose 'Turn off', which gives Windows a better chance to check that everything is OK. But I had certainly used 'Turn off' at least once with no change in the font count. But the snag about using FontWatch is that it can't be running when Windows starts up.

I have now established that only the OpenType TTF fonts have been put back into WinNT\Fonts by Windows (or by an officious application); all other references are just short cuts. If there are only 152 fonts that can't be inactivated, that's not too bad, as I have !805 fonts in all, most of them TruType. But 152 TT fonts in addition to the more than fifty OTF or T1 fonts I keep active means that every time I start an application i get a choice of about two hundred fonts, and I think that's too many.

Steve Rindsberg
02-06-2006, 10:50 AM
>>I usually switch off using 'Hibernate', but at least once a week I choose 'Turn off', which gives Windows a better chance to check that everything is OK. But I had certainly used 'Turn off' at least once with no change in the font count. But the snag about using FontWatch is that it can't be running when Windows starts up.>>

True, you'd have to take a look, jot down the most recently reported number, then start it up again manually and note the count it comes up with then.

>>I have now established that only the OpenType TTF fonts have been put back into WinNT\Fonts by Windows (or by an officious application); all other references are just short cuts. If there are only 152 fonts that can't be inactivated, that's not too bad, as I have !805 fonts in all, most of them TruType. But 152 TT fonts in addition to the more than fifty OTF or T1 fonts I keep active means that every time I start an application i get a choice of about two hundred fonts, and I think that's too many.

It would be for me too. What about the shortcuts? Where do they point - ie, to what real directory? That might give a clue as to the provenance.

Michael Rowley
02-06-2006, 12:13 PM
Steve:

'What about the shortcuts? Where do they point?'

All to C:\PSfonts or C:\tt_fonts (or sub-folders of those). They're no trouble and are only for the fonts I have deliberately activated through ATM Deluxe. The curious thing is why should Windows want all the OT fonts in its WinNT\Fonts folder when it's perfectly happy to let shortcuts suffice for anything else; I can understand why it needs certain fonts to be available permanently. No one tells you nothing! (Apply appropriate regional accent.)

Steve Rindsberg
02-06-2006, 07:13 PM
OK, I see what you mean about the shortcuts.

Hm. Does ATM Deluxe claim to be intende for use with XP? (Last time I fired a copy up was on NT4, so I really haven't a clue).

dthomsen8
02-07-2006, 04:01 AM
It's never safe to turn your back on Windows.

It's never safe to turn your back on Bill Gates and his company.

Michael Rowley
02-07-2006, 07:34 AM
Steve:

'Does ATM Deluxe claim to be intende for use with XP?'

No, because the last version of ATM Deluxe came out when Windows 2000 (NT5) was the latest version. But as far as I remember, font handling hasn't changed with XP. The list of fonts that had to be in WinNT\Fonts was longer than Adobe thought it was even in the time of NT5; now, about 40 fonts is the minimum--I can't find any mention of the hundred or so extra fonts I've now got in WinNT\Fonts.

Everyone's keeping very quiet on this problem of mine, so perhaps they're not getting the same results; after all, I'm not the only Windows XP user.

Franca
02-07-2006, 01:07 PM
Hi all, coming in late on this one due to recent network issues.

I'm on Win XP. My system uses C:\Windows\Fonts rather than WinNT\Fonts, though. I curently have three fonts that refuse to be moved out of the Windows Fonts directory. Microsoft Sans Serif which I sort of understand, and two Franklin Gothic fonts which pop back up in there no matter what I do. Immediately. Has nothing to do with installing new apps. This is disturbing to me because I use Type 1 Franklin Gothic and don't wish to have both the TT (or OT) and T1 versions installed at the same time.

Speaking of OT, these fonts have "O" icons next to them but are identified by Windows Explorer as being "TrueType" fonts. Please pardon my ignorance, but what does this mean?

Michael Rowley
02-08-2006, 12:35 PM
Franca:

'Speaking of OT, these fonts have "O" icons next to them but are identified by Windows Explorer as being "TrueType" fonts. Please pardon my ignorance, but what does this mean?'

OTF is the file extension for T1-flavoured OT fonts, but TTF has been retained as the extension for all TrueType fonts, whether they comply with the OT specification or not; but Windows identifies the OT fonts that are TrueType fonts with an 'O' icon.

If your TTF Franklin Gothic fonts are in WinNT\Fonts (or Windows\Fonts), they can't be controlled by ATM Deluxe or any other font manager that, as far as I know, i.e. they can't be made inactive. As you say, that's a potentially awkward situation. Font experts step forward, please!

Michael Rowley
02-12-2006, 10:14 AM
All interested:

I've now reduced the number of font files in winnt\fonts (again!) to 30: the only fonts that are not among the minimum said by Microsoft (I've checked the MS site) are a couple of Franklin Gothic fonts that won't go away; I think they're required by FrameMaker. I've confirmed the count with Steve R.'s FontWatch after rebooting.

Steve: I'm not too clear about how FontWatch is supposed to be used.

Steve Rindsberg
02-12-2006, 12:08 PM
Michael

Just fire up FontWatch and point it at your fonts folder, then leave it running.

While running, it looks at your fonts folder every N seconds and gets a count of the TTF files there. If it notices that the count is different from what it found the previous go-round, it flashes its taskbar icon, you click the icon and it tells you the old and new totals.

So as you start/quit various apps, keep an eye on it and note what you were doing when it starts to bark.

I'd set the interval fairly high - no sense in having it prod your fonts folder every 5 seconds. 300 seconds or more makes sense to me.

If that doesn't turn up anything interesting (ie, you may not notice it blinking on the task bar if the task bar's hidden) I may add a logging function.

Michael Rowley
02-12-2006, 02:04 PM
Steve:

'it flashes its taskbar icon'

I haven't caught it doing that yet, but it must have done, for the count has suddenly gone up to 47, although the only program I started after it was reduced to 30 was Outlook. The unexpected intruders are Comic Sans (!), Impact, Book Antiqua, Century Gothic, Twentieth Century, & Trebuchet. None of these is listed by MS as 'essential', and it even suggests putting them somewhere other than winnt\fonts, but it is apparently Windows that drags them back into the fold.

Strange. I'd like to know if others have the same experience.

Franca
02-12-2006, 03:39 PM
I have decided to try the most excellent FontWatch as well. Have only just started it up, so nothing exciting to report.

My "starting lineup" of TTF fonts in C:\Windows\Fonts is 5, including the two Franklin Gothic fonts that won't go away. I did investigate further and found that their font names are not identical to those of my T1 Franklin Gothic fonts, so perhaps their behavior will be benign despite the fact that they are permanently installed without my permission. :evil:

My system seems stable at the moment. We shall see what happens over the course of the next week or so. Thanks, Steve!

Michael Rowley
02-13-2006, 07:41 AM
Franca:

'My "starting lineup" of TTF fonts in C:\Windows\Fonts is 5'

That's amazing. What version of Windows have you got? Have you perhaps a 'minimum' installation? And could you tell us what the TTF fonts are?

The minimum number of TTF fonts according to Microsoft is about 17, plus the usual bit fonts. I've got two Franklin Gothic fonts too: you can delete them (they're not protected), but the come back in seconds.

Franca
02-13-2006, 11:35 AM
Michael,

That's amazing. What version of Windows have you got? Have you perhaps a 'minimum' installation? And could you tell us what the TTF fonts are?It's Win XP Pro SP2, no different from anyone else's installation as far as I know. I don't use MS Word, though, ever - so that could be one significant difference. I uninstalled it on this system.

I wish I could tell you what the 5 TTFs are, but I'm dumbfounded - I just went into the Windows\Fonts directory and all TTF files are now simply shortcuts, including the two "problem" Franklin Gothic fonts. Since they seemed to have completely different names from my Type 1 versions, I caved in and (grudgingly I might add) "installed" them using Font Navigator, hoping that might solve one problem without creating others. Perhaps from now on Windows will let Font Navigator manage them, but I won't know for sure until I see what happens when I uninstall them - they may pop right back in to Win\Fonts. I'm going to leave them alone for awhile and let them settle into their new home first.

As for "The Five" I can only surmise they are essential hidden fonts like Marlett because I can't see them at all.

The minimum number of TTF fonts according to Microsoft is about 17, plus the usual bit fonts. I've got two Franklin Gothic fonts too: you can delete them (they're not protected), but they come back in seconds.That was my experience with those two as well. I have about 30 TTF fonts installed using Font Navigator. I tried my best to make sure that all Windows essentials were included in that group, and they all appear as shortcuts now in the Windows\Fonts folder.

I can only attribute this tidiness to the wonders of Bitstream Font Navigator, which has always worked much better for me than ATM Deluxe. ATM Deluxe made a mess of things on my system a number of years ago (Win 98 or earlier) so I went back to ATM lite and have been using only Font Navigator for font management ever since. With XP I have no form of ATM installed any more.

Michael Rowley
02-13-2006, 01:57 PM
Franca:

'I won't know for sure until I see what happens when I uninstall them - they may pop right back in to Win\Fonts'

Windows might accept shortcuts, which will be in the Windows\Fonts folder as long as you've got the files activated.

You are lucky having Font Navigator, which appears to be longer sold. I shall probably keep ATM Deluxe, which seems to do a good job on the whole. But my WinNT\Fonts folder (why has yours a different name? another mystery) has Verdana in it (3 fonts), Twentieth Century (6 fonts), Trebuchet (4 fonts), Impact, Comic Sans (2 fonts), Franklin Gothic (2 fonts), Century Gothic (4 fonts), & Book Antiqua (4 fonts). These are all in addition to the 21 TrueType fonts that Microsoft considers essential. Perhaps there will be different system of font handling once Vista appears.

Franca
02-13-2006, 05:42 PM
Michael,

Windows might accept shortcuts, which will be in the Windows\Fonts folder as long as you've got the files activated.Yes, it does; that's why I am able to keep all of my fonts elsewhere. But as you've noted, apps sometimes drop fonts in there without asking, and apparently fonts that one has removed can also creep back in when one isn't looking.... Ugh.

You are lucky having Font Navigator, which appears to be no longer sold.Indeed, I am fortunate but there may be a way for you to be equally fortunate. I found a site that suggests a way you can get Font Navigator 5. It's up to you whether or not you are game to try it ;):

Font Management Solution (http://www.noscope.com/journal/2004/09/font-management-solution)

But my WinNT\Fonts folder (why has yours a different name? another mystery) 'Tis a mystery to me as well. Did your computer come with XP installed or did you install it yourself? Was it already updated to SP2 or did you update it afterwards? This is all conjecture but it may just have to do with how XP was initially installed on your system. Perhaps different builds/releases of XP had slightly different install procedures. My system is a Dell Precision 650 desktop that came with XP installed. I believe it predated any major service packs but I know for sure that SP2 was released some time after I bought this computer.

Steve Rindsberg
02-13-2006, 06:49 PM
I'm not sure what it'll do if the taskbar's not visible. You might not see it flashing in that case.

Try setting the taskbar to visible temporarily, perhaps?

Steve Rindsberg
02-13-2006, 06:54 PM
>> But my WinNT\Fonts folder (why has yours a different name? another mystery)

Windows 2000 (which I think Franca uses) was the "NT", high-end system as opposed to Windows 98; for whatever reason, NT-based systems always defaulted to creating \WinNT as a home for themselves, where the non-NT systems used \Windows.

XP in both flavors --> \Windows

Franca
02-13-2006, 11:26 PM
Windows 2000 (which I think Franca uses) was the "NT", high-end system as opposed to Windows 98; for whatever reason, NT-based systems always defaulted to creating \WinNT as a home for themselves, where the non-NT systems used \Windows.

XP in both flavors --> \WindowsBut but but Michael's system is the one that uses the "NT" - not mine - and we are both on Win XP. ;)

iamback
02-13-2006, 11:32 PM
But my WinNT\Fonts folder (why has yours a different name? another mystery)The name for the %windows% folder is what you determine it to be at installation time; you may simply accept the default, or choose any name you like - especially useful in multi-boot setups.

iamback
02-13-2006, 11:55 PM
Indeed, I am fortunate but there may be a way for you to be equally fortunate. I found a site that suggests a way you can get Font Navigator 5. It's up to you whether or not you are game to try it ;):

Font Management Solution (http://www.noscope.com/journal/2004/09/font-management-solution)Hmmm - from its description it doesn't seem to do any more than the freeware app The Font Thing (http://members.ozemail.com.au/~scef/) by Sue Fisher I've been using for ages. I use it as an advanced browser mostly because the one thing it doesn't seem to do is install as shortcut - it installs by placing a copy in the %windows%\Fonts directory (as most apps that come with fonts do - so I've pretty much given up on organizing that...). But as a browser it's excellent, and it shows you which of the fonts are installed and which aren't. Attachment shows its main controls (there are some more at the bottom of the view panes to control options of the various views).

Michael Rowley
02-14-2006, 07:57 AM
Franca:

'I found a site that suggests a way you can get Font Navigator 5'

I've read the explanation on that site, and it does give a good way of getting Navigator 5. However, I'm prepared to tolerate Microsoft's 'essential' set, because I would never want to inactivate Times NR & Arial. or Symbol; I'm even prepared to tolerate the extended set I've got at the moment; but the 135 fonts it went up to is too many.

I started with Windows 2000 pre-installed (by a company that turned up its toes a little later, but was renowned for its good after-sales service), so Windows XP was an upgrade. It was a very good upgrade, accomodating itself to my previous settings. Since I acquired ATM Deluxe after I bought the computer, it is possible, even likely, that all my fonts were entered in the registry as being in WinNT\Fonts, & that every so often Windows tries to restore the status quo.

Michael Rowley
02-14-2006, 08:06 AM
Steve:

'NT-based systems always defaulted to creating \WinNT as a home for themselves'

Windows NT5 was the first 32-bit system I have ever possessed, & now I've advanced to Windows NT5.1 (or is it 5.5?). I think most people would think that running Windows 3.11 for so long was a little eccentric.

dthomsen8
02-14-2006, 08:59 AM
I have been lurking in this thread with only one message for some time. Today I finally looked at my windows/fonts folder with the command window.

Results: 135 fon extension fonts, 116 TTF extension fonts. Largest TTF's were pala.ttf, palab.ttf, and palai.ttf, 400+Kb each, but then there was the giant, ARIALUNI.TTF, at over 23Mb. None of the fon extension fonts appear as possibilities in MS Word. I doubt that I need all of them. What about ARIALUNI.TTF, when I also have a variety of arial*.tff fonts which are much, much smaller?

I know we have a lot of forum members who know about fonts, so I expect to learn from the responses here. I am interested in doing some font management, just unsure what to do now.

Michael Rowley
02-14-2006, 10:30 AM
'What about ARIALUNI.TTF'

ArialUni.TTF is an immensely useful font for those that dabble in unusual writing systems, for it has umpteen thousand glyphs, but being much larger than any other OT font, it shouldn't be installed permanently; it's Microsoft's party piece, got up mainly to show what an OT font can do. Microsoft tells people that download it to install it separately from other fonts.

You seem to have an unusually large number of bit fonts (those with the extension FON): Microsoft uses only about five with Windows. They aren't used by Word.

Palatino is installed, I think, with Office. It's very similar to Book Antiqua but has the advantage of not being an unauthorized version of Palatino, and, as you have noticed, it is OT with a largish number of glyphs.

iamback
02-14-2006, 10:51 AM
ArialUni.TTF is an immensely useful font for those that dabble in unusual writing systems, for it has umpteen thousand glyphs, but being much larger than any other OT font, it shouldn't be installed permanently; it's Microsoft's party piece, got up mainly to show what an OT font can do. Microsoft tells people that download it to install it separately from other fonts.Given that Chinese and Japanese are hardly "unusual writing systems" if you look at the number of readers and writers, and neither are the various cyrillic sets for the same reason, the Unicode fonts are immensely useful simply if you browse a lot of "international" sites. Of all fonts that have both a Latin and a Unicode version, I have the Unicode version permanently installed. On a new install that don't have them that's one of the first things I add/replace.

On top of that, I create multilingual web pages as well, and need the Unicode-supporing fonts for that reason, too. A big problem is that Microsoft no longer have these excellent Unicode fonts available for download from their typography site - though several other sites now make them available. A really stupid move by Microsoft...

Palatino is installed, I think, with Office. It's very similar to Book Antiqua but has the advantage of not being an unauthorized version of Palatino, and, as you have noticed, it is OT with a largish number of glyphs.Palatino is one of my all-time favorite serif fonts; I once had a letter head and business cards designed and chose Palatino for the font because it's also one of the built-in fonts in my HP Laserjet 4ML (still going strong). No good for web design (with it too-fine details), but excellent for print.

Franca
02-14-2006, 11:33 AM
I've read the explanation on that site, and it does give a good way of getting Navigator 5. However, I'm prepared to tolerate Microsoft's 'essential' set, because I would never want to inactivate Times NR & Arial. or Symbol; I'm even prepared to tolerate the extended set I've got at the moment; but the 135 fonts it went up to is too many.I wouldn't want to deactivate TNR or Arial either, but I am much happier having them be permanently installed as shortcuts. They are part of my "Essential TTF" font set that I always have active in Font Navigator. As far as Symbol goes, my system is happily using the T1 version instead of the TTF version.

I started with Windows 2000 pre-installed (by a company that turned up its toes a little later, but was renowned for its good after-sales service), so Windows XP was an upgrade. It was a very good upgrade, accomodating itself to my previous settings. Since I acquired ATM Deluxe after I bought the computer, it is possible, even likely, that all my fonts were entered in the registry as being in WinNT\Fonts, & that every so often Windows tries to restore the status quo.That would seem to explain perfectly the reason your system uses C:\WinNT\Fonts. Your XP upgrade politely retained Win 2K's fonts folder. :)

Michael Rowley
02-14-2006, 11:35 AM
Marjolein:

'Given that Chinese and Japanese are hardly "unusual writing systems" '

I neither said nor implied that Chinese (or Japanese) is the one that is unusual, and there is no shortage of suitable fonts for it. But people that don't need the Chinese ideographs regularly, and people that only use one or another of the many alphabets in use throughout the world only occasionally will value the very much extended Arial font. So far as I know, it is still available, but I don't recollect that it was ever supplied by Microsoft's typography site. That site did supply Georgia, Verdana, Trebuchet, Tahoma, & one or two Arial variants, but these have become fairly common throughout the years, and are either supplied with various OSs and applications or available (for cash) from Ascender.

Palatino is everyone's favourite, judging from the number of books printed with it.

Michael Rowley
02-14-2006, 11:46 AM
Franca:

'my "Essential TTF" font set'

I've got one of those too.

My XP upgrade was probably not the reason for registering the fonts, which were presumably registered by Windows NT5 before I got round to tidying up my fonts with ATM Deluxe. Windows 3.11, which had several NT features, also had a tendency to grab fonts. I could probably get the registry rewritten if I knew how (and had the nerve).

I gather that Mac OS is similarly complicated, but is more amenable to being changed.

Franca
02-14-2006, 11:51 AM
Hmmm - from its description it doesn't seem to do any more than the freeware app The Font Thing (http://members.ozemail.com.au/%7Escef/) by Sue Fisher I've been using for ages. I use it as an advanced browser mostly because the one thing it doesn't seem to do is install as shortcut - it installs by placing a copy in the %windows%\Fonts directory (as most apps that come with fonts do - so I've pretty much given up on organizing that...). But as a browser it's excellent, and it shows you which of the fonts are installed and which aren't. Attachment shows its main controls (there are some more at the bottom of the view panes to control options of the various views).That looks quite nice for freeware, and the tabbed interface is lovely. However, there are at least two significant differences:

1. As you've already mentioned, it places the TTF fonts themselves (rather than shortcuts) into the Windows\Fonts folder. Keeping fonts out of there is the reason I looked to font management software in the first place.

and, more importantly

2. According to the FAQ it doesn't yet manage Type 1 fonts (and since the site's What's New page apparently hasn't been updated since January 2000, support for Type 1 doesn't seem to be coming any time soon)

These are showstoppers for me. Font Navigator manages all of my fonts and keeps the Windows\Fonts folder lean and clean; I'm spoiled now and I wouldn't have it any other way. ;)

Franca
02-14-2006, 11:55 AM
My XP upgrade was probably not the reason for registering the fonts, which were presumably registered by Windows NT5 before I got round to tidying up my fonts with ATM Deluxe.Agreed. The XP upgrade just left things the way they were.

I could probably get the registry rewritten if I knew how (and had the nerve).I don't think I'd have the nerve. There are very few things I trust myself to do in the registry. The less one mucks about in there the better! The price for the smallest misstep is too high. :eek:

iamback
02-14-2006, 12:56 PM
That looks quite nice for freeware, and the tabbed interface is lovely.I agree - it's a really well-designed UI. Too bad that development seems to have stopped.

2. According to the FAQ it doesn't yet manage Type 1 fonts (and since the site's What's New page apparently hasn't been updated since January 2000, support for Type 1 doesn't seem to be coming any time soon)

These are showstoppers for me. Font Navigator manages all of my fontsGood point. I'll try Font Navigator and see how it stacks up (But I don't think I have many type 1 fonts).

My use of fonts is hardly that of a professional, but at times I really need a good collection of fonts. Over the years I've collected a nice set of freeware font tools that together do most of what I need. If I need anything beyond that occasionally I'd be prepared to pay a little, but not a whole lot, not for occasional use. (And currently I really have to watch what I spend my money on.) Unicode support is (and always has been) a biggie for me.

Michael Rowley
02-14-2006, 03:24 PM
Franca:

'It's up to you whether or not you are game to try it'

I've now downloaded CorelGraphics Suite X3 & hope that among the 255 Mbyte I've received there is Navigator 5. Ihen I'll throw away the wrapping! It's too late to do it tonight though. Toi, Toi, Toi!

Steve Rindsberg
02-14-2006, 03:29 PM
But Michael's was an upgrade from Win2000, so I'm guessing that XP found an existing system already aboard and installed itself atop.

Steve Rindsberg
02-14-2006, 03:34 PM
ArialUni.ttf is the so-called "Universal" font. It's a unicode font with a huge number of glyphs (which accounts for its size).

The other Arial varieties may or may not be unicode, depending on their age, but they won't have near as many glyphs as the ArialUni version.

FON files are bitmapped screen fonts, most of which Windows normally hides (or at least they're hidden here). I wouldn't delete them unless you're very sure of what you're doing. Or are good at keeping backups. <g>

Steve Rindsberg
02-14-2006, 03:37 PM
>>You seem to have an unusually large number of bit fonts (those with the extension FON): Microsoft uses only about five with Windows. They aren't used by Word.

Ah, but open a command window and type:

CD \winnt\fonts
or
CD \windows\fonts

then

attrib *.fon

Here, there are zillions of the little critters, but Bill hides most of them.

Franca
02-14-2006, 03:40 PM
Michael,

I've now downloaded CorelGraphics Suite X3 & hope that among the 255 Mbyte I've received there is Navigator 5. Then I'll throw away the wrapping!Good grief, that's a lot of "packaging" for a little font manager. ;) I imagine you're quite eager to toss the rest of the box. Although I suppose since you've made the effort to download you could play with the wrapper for awhile if you're at all curious about it. But certainly not at this hour of the night. Sleep first, dive into new toys later. :D

Franca
02-14-2006, 03:51 PM
Agreed. You just had us (Michael and me) backwards in your earlier post. But then I'm frequently upside down so backwards is nothing.

iamback
02-15-2006, 12:57 AM
I'll try Font Navigator and see how it stacks up (But I don't think I have many type 1 fonts).Well, what can I say? It does support Type1 fonts (though some generate an error when I try to access them). Letting it search for fonts was interesting, too, it found fonts in places where I didn't think they'd be hiding (Java JRE??? oh, ok - just didn't expect any fonts there but I guess I should have).

Other than that - what a clunky piece of crap (sorry). After the search the "Font Catalog" doesn't even tell me how many there are. Viewing fonts is EXTREMELY limited. Unicode support is - well, incomplete - no more than a start, really. Properties shows only a tiny fraction of font information; its sample text pane doesn't accept pasting Unicode characters that it doesn't show on the clunky character chart but that are in the font (all it produces is a question mark - not sure if that means it cannot display the character or doesn't support copy-and-paste of multi-byte characters); the character chart shows (some) "character sets" that are present - but not all characters in those character sets (particularly it doesn't seem able to show any Chinese characters (again, when they are present - I can see them with other tools)); Unicode character ranges in a font cannot be viewed at all. Although Windows' character map shows only installed fonts (obviously) it's far better at showing fonts, with complete Unicode support (as far as I can tell - at least it's 5x as complete as Font Navigator).

In short: it may occasionally come in useful to (un)install fonts that The Font Thing doesn't support and that's it; otherwise it's pretty useless for me.

So for now I'll just go on using The Font Thing (for (un)installing and collections) in combination with Arjan Mel's Font Viewer (for access to full embedded font info and full Unicode support in viewing) and Windows Character map as a quickie viewer and for copy-and-paste). Until an application turns up that supports all of what this combination does... (sigh)

I'll look at some of the other suggestions in the comments on the noscope "Font Management Solution" but Font Navigator 5 is far - very far - from a "solution" for me.

dthomsen8
02-15-2006, 05:05 AM
>>You seem to have an unusually large number of bit fonts (those with the extension FON): Microsoft uses only about five with Windows. They aren't used by Word.

Ah, but open a command window and type:

CD \winnt\fonts
or
CD \windows\fonts

then

attrib *.fon

Here, there are zillions of the little critters, but Bill hides most of them.

I recognize the 8514xxx.fon fonts, because 8514 is a really ancient model IBM monitor. Windows XP Pro is all set for me to connect an 8514 to my computer. Are these really needed?

OTOH, maybe this is not worth fooling around with, all 135 fonts only come up to 3Mb, while that ARIALUNI is going to get uninstalled at 23Mb. I suspect that boot times are still affected by having all these fonts, although fast hard drives mean its not like the old days, when slow hardware made for slow boots.

iamback
02-15-2006, 05:50 AM
Ah, but open a command window and type:

CD \winnt\fonts
or
CD \windows\fonts

then

attrib *.fon

Here, there are zillions of the little critters, but Bill hides most of them.I opened a command-line window on R:\Win2000\Fonts and typed dir /a:-d *.fon - that shows anything but directories but includes hidden files, and unlike attrib it shows the number of matches in a summary as well. 200 in my case, but 15 of them are not hidden. Not all are bitmapped fonts either.

I'm leaving them all, they're mostly small (and I'm certainly keeping my Unicode fonts, and those are big). Besides, small bitmapped fonts can be very useful for creating graphics such as micro-buttons with small-size text.

Michael Rowley
02-15-2006, 10:31 AM
Franca:

'dive into new toys later'

I have now installed CorelGraphics Suite X3 (or the main part of it), and I have Bitstream FontNavigator 5 (it is still called that) in a folder all of its own. I'm now mulling over a way to get rid of most of the suite without also uninstalling FontNavigator.

I haven't yet encountered the vital information about what must be in WinNT\Fonts: vital, because I shall only use FontNavigator if it can prevent fonts that don't have to be there from getting there, otherwise they cannot be inactivated.

I am increasingly certain that the various suppliers of font managers are waiting to see how Vista handles fonts before wasting their time on Windows. Meanwhile, those that claim to be suitable for Windows XP are just saying that XP doesn't refuse to have anything to do with them.

Marjolein doesn't seem to grasp what are the main functions of a font manager are, viz to activate and inactivate fonts without uninstalling them. All the rest is very nice (grouping fonts etc.), but something of a luxury. You can see every glyph in Windows character map, so the old-style glyph charts limited to 256 glyphs are superfluous.

iamback
02-15-2006, 11:29 AM
Marjolein doesn't seem to grasp what are the main functions of a font manager are, viz to activate and inactivate fonts without uninstalling them. All the rest is very nice (grouping fonts etc.), but something of a luxury. You can see every glyph in Windows character map, so the old-style glyph charts limited to 256 glyphs are superfluous.I am definitely grasping what the main function of a font manager is. But to decide what to (un)install or (in)activate I need to be able to see what I'm working with. Yes I can see every glyph in Windows character map (as I mentioned) - but very small, and without a good idea of the font characteristics. Arjan Mel's Font Viewer is worlds better at viewing, with base lines etc. shown - but single fonts only; but it has the best access to all font info embedded in a font. The Font Thing allows viewing and comparing multiple fonts, and a large view of each single glyph (but not Unicode); on top of that it has the best font manager UI I've seen so far.

What I'm looking for is an application that integrates all that - including full support for Unicode which I need (but I was harping about that 6 years ago already - hardly any font tool at that time had any Unicode support at all). Font Navigator is not even close, and on top of that clunky, with a terrible UI. Did someone say it's so Win 3.1? Indeed, that's what it is. With a little token dash of Unicode added but not enough to make a difference.

Steve Rindsberg
02-15-2006, 01:03 PM
I'm pretty sure the FON fonts are only there as system fonts, a set for each resolution the video driver might need. Something tells me that we won't often feel the need for CGA resolution fonts, but what do I know? ;-)

It's possible they're also there for compatibilty with old Win31 apps.
Given the sizes, I'd leave them alone.

Steve Rindsberg
02-15-2006, 01:08 PM
>>I opened a command-line window on R:\Win2000\Fonts and typed dir /a:-d *.fon - that shows anything but directories but includes hidden files, and unlike attrib it shows the number of matches in a summary as well. 200 in my case, but 15 of them are not hidden. Not all are bitmapped fonts either.

Curious. I was under the impression that FON fonts were by definition bitmapped. Not all of my impressions have the force of law however. ;-)

Which of your .FON files are not bitmapped fonts (and how did you test)?

terrie
02-15-2006, 02:27 PM
michael: I've now downloaded CorelGraphics Suite X3 & hope that among the 255 Mbyte I've received there is Navigator 5.It does...did X3 yesterday and installed only FN5...

I installed FN5 in a different directory than FN3 and so I have both...

I've been considering upgrading to whatever the new version of WordPerfect is but I wasn't sure if it had FN as part of the software...

Terrie

Michael Rowley
02-15-2006, 02:28 PM
Marjolein:

'But to decide what to (un)install or (in)activate I need to be able to see what I'm working with'

In my book, you inactivate any font that you don't want your applications to load every time, but leave them ready for activation if you need them. That being so, you have ample opportunity to explore a font's typographic qualities.

I don't think there's such a thing as a 'Unicode' font. No font has glyphs for every code point in Unicode, and not many possess many of the features that could, under Unicode, be supported. The best we have are Open Type fonts, which, as you remark, may have most of the features of which Open Type fonts can have, or practically none of them. But very few applications can take advantage of those features; so not many font designers will bother to supply them yet. That being so, an application that reveals just what a font could do is pie in the sky.

Bitstream FontNavigator 5 looks to me very much run of the mill, and the only thing it does that ATM Deluxe does not do appears to be to identify fonts with the same name on the computer; but should it prevent fonts from creeping into WinNT\Fonts when they don't need to be there, perhaps I'll use it. But I rather trust Adobe to have decided correctly: it is probably a futile fight at present.

'full support for Unicode which I need'

Why do you need it? Are you developing an application?

iamback
02-15-2006, 02:29 PM
Curious. I was under the impression that FON fonts were by definition bitmapped. Not all of my impressions have the force of law however. ;-)

Which of your .FON files are not bitmapped fonts (and how did you test)?I was under the same impression until I tried this. :) Looking yet closer again I'm getting very confused now.

I frequently have a quick look at fonts (outside of the installed fonts dir) with my (nearly) all-purpose FmView file viewer (originating from the Win3.x era but still incredibly useful). Compare the first two screen shots of .FON fonts viewed with FmView. Striking difference, no? The second has the smooth appearance of a TrueType font while the first clearly shows the jaggies of a bitmapped font. .FON files won't open in Arjan Mel's font viewer, and so choosing open from the context menu will default to Window's own basic font file viewer applet instead. Same font in both in the second two screen shots.

What's weird is that the SYMBOLE.FON file has the same timestamp as a number of other .FON files that were apparently installed with Windows2000. Properties on that file confirms that, though the qualification '(VGA)' confuses me again and the numbers before that seem to indicate bitmap sizes (heights) - last screenshot.

It's as if I should be seeing a bitmapped font - but I'm not (in both viewers!); and the file size indication in the Windows font viewer matches that of the .FON file, not that of the larger SYMBOL.TTF (in the same separate directory and installed). Oh, and this is a hidden font file, even in this separate directory, but so are some of the others that don't 'behave' as weird as this one.

Help?

(off to bed... but I think I need a nightcap first, now :()

terrie
02-15-2006, 02:48 PM
michael: I have now installed CorelGraphics Suite X3 (or the main part of it), and I have Bitstream FontNavigator 5 (it is still called that) in a folder all of its own. I'm now mulling over a way to get rid of most of the suite without also uninstalling FontNavigator.If you click on the "advanced" button during the install, you can select whatever modules you want to install. That's what I did so I only picked up FN5...

You might try uninstalling and then do the install again using the advanced option...

Terrie

Michael Rowley
02-15-2006, 03:03 PM
Terrie:

'You might try uninstalling and then do the install again using the advanced option'

That's an idea: but what happens after 15 days? Will FN5 disappear with a puff of smoke?

Actually, I did look at the 'advanced' options, but wasn't quick-witted enough to discern FontNavigator. I think I'll uninstall the lot and start again; I want my 408 Mbyte back!

iamback
02-15-2006, 03:12 PM
'You might try uninstalling and then do the install again using the advanced option'

That's an idea: but what happens after 15 days? Will FN5 disappear with a puff of smoke?I didn't run any install at all - just followed the hint as given in one of the comments to unpack the .cab file and gather up only the files needed for the Font Navigator (add readme.hlp to the files mentioned there), put them in a directory, and create a shortcut. That's it. 15 days? What 15 days? :)

When you run it, it will create the Cache, Data_NT and Groups subdirectories (see time stamps!). This is what's in my directory:
Directory of F:\Fonts\FONTNA~1

2006-02-16 01:10 <DIR> .
2006-02-16 01:10 <DIR> ..
2006-02-15 09:56 <DIR> Cache
2006-02-15 11:33 <DIR> Data_NT
2000-07-25 18:33 110,592 dunzip32.dll
2003-11-10 10:37 147,456 Fn3API.dll
2003-05-27 06:41 94,208 Fn3Res.dll
2006-02-16 01:10 0 fn5.lst
2000-09-06 23:36 1,639 FontNav.cnt
2003-05-27 07:07 528,384 FontNav.exe
2003-05-07 02:52 1,517,010 FontNav.hlp
2006-02-15 09:56 <DIR> Groups
2003-05-07 02:51 1,066,485 readme.hlp
8 File(s) 3,465,774 bytes


Oh, and don't miss that you have to remove 6 off the end of some file extensions. There's also a Fn3API.dll6 but I left that and copied Fn3API.dll (different version).

Franca
02-15-2006, 03:32 PM
Michael,

I haven't yet encountered the vital information about what must be in WinNT\Fonts: vital, because I shall only use FontNavigator if it can prevent fonts that don't have to be there from getting there, otherwise they cannot be inactivated.Ah, but they can be inactivated - you simply move (not copy) them out of WinNT\Fonts and drop them into your own custom fonts folder. This will leave the shortcut behind in the Windows fonts folder, but then you use Font Navigator to deactivate (FontNav calls it "uninstall") it in your custom fonts folder. When FontNav uninstalls the font, the shortcut disappears from the Windows fonts folder until you reactivate it. Occasionally a font will be stubborn about leaving (like those Franklin Gothic ones), but after I rebooted even the Franklin Gothic fonts behaved and my Windows Fonts folder was all tidied up. I think Windows needs to be prodded to check its parts every now and then, and following font reorganization is one of those times when a reboot is necessary.

Michael Rowley
02-16-2006, 07:41 AM
Marjolein:

'What 15 days?'

The 15 days Corel gives you to try out X3. (The X£ appears to refer to the three applications in the suite: CorelDraw 13 is the principal one.)

I've got Bitsteam FontNavigator 5 now, isolated from the rest, which is now safely uninstalled. I think your method would have been better, but Terrie's solution is also a good one.

Michael Rowley
02-16-2006, 07:51 AM
Franca:

'Ah, but they can be inactivated'

Yes, I've got the theory, but the practice lags behind in the case of ATM Deluxe; I remain sceptical that FontNavigator will do any better. Now, if I were starting with a bran-new compute . . .

One of the reasons why I'm reluctant to use a new font manager is that I've got most of the fonts that I'm ever likely to use organized into groups (quite a lot of groups), and if I adopted FontNavigator, I think I should have to organize all the groups again.

terrie
02-16-2006, 01:39 PM
michael: That's an idea: but what happens after 15 days? Will FN5 disappear with a puff of smoke?Don't know but will know on or about March 1st...'-}}


>>Actually, I did look at the 'advanced' options, but wasn't quick-witted enough to discern FontNavigator. I think I'll uninstall the lot and start again; I want my 408 Mbyte back!

It's a bit confusing but FN is under "Utilities". For everything but FN, choose whatever is the 3rd option on the installation drop down--can't remember the exact words but it's something like "install this" and the other 2 options are "don't install".

Terrie

Michael Rowley
02-16-2006, 03:20 PM
Terrie:

'It's a bit confusing but FN is under "Utilities" '

I though it might be, but then I had the brilliant idea of just copying the FontNavigator folder to a new directory and uninstalling all Corel Graphic Suite. It worked of course, but I've now got a copy of FontNavigator that cannot be uninstalled by Windows. Not such a good idea, after all!

I've now got only 21 fonts actually in the WinNT\Fonts folder; all the others have been installed by ATM Deluxe and are just indicated as shortcuts in the WinNT\Fonts folder. I wonder how long that will last.

Steve Rindsberg
02-16-2006, 06:47 PM
>>I though it might be, but then I had the brilliant idea of just copying the FontNavigator folder to a new directory and uninstalling all Corel Graphic Suite. It worked of course, but I've now got a copy of FontNavigator that cannot be uninstalled by Windows. Not such a good idea, after all!

It may have changed, but previous versions of FontNav were self-contained ... didn't need anything registered or installed in the system folder.

Whether or not that's still true, one of two things will happen:

You'll uninstall CGS and FontNav will continue to work. In which case it's still self-contained and if you need to uninstall it, you only need delete its files.

or

You'll uninstall CGS and FontNav will cease working. In which case it's not self-contained, but the uninstall will have deleted all the system files et al; you'll only have to delete the extra copy you made.

Steve Rindsberg
02-16-2006, 07:00 PM
I'm seeing the same thing. But watch this. My hands never leave my wrists but ...

Try renaming SYMBOL.TTF to something else. Windows Explorer won't let you.
Rename it to SymbolX.TTF from a command prompt and woops, there in Windows Explorer appears a new *hidden* Symbol.TTF

And ignore that man yelling "Pay no attention to the man behind that curtain. I am the great Woz!" It's just Gates having a little delusion.

My theory is that Windows substitutes Symbol (ttf) for SymbolE unless it has reasons not to (DOS displays or ???)

Ah. And that FON files are still bitmap fonts (note the specific sizes mentioned in the font's Properties sheet)

iamback
02-16-2006, 10:53 PM
Terrie:

'It's a bit confusing but FN is under "Utilities" '

I though it might be, but then I had the brilliant idea of just copying the FontNavigator folder to a new directory and uninstalling all Corel Graphic Suite. It worked of course, but I've now got a copy of FontNavigator that cannot be uninstalled by Windows. Not such a good idea, after all!Mine can't be "uninstalled" beause I didn't install it in the first place! And it works, which shows it doesn't need installation either. In use it creates its own directories below its installation directory, so those aren't a problem either. Question remains whether it also makes any entries in the Registry then, which you'd have to remove if you want to uninstall (not really have to - but just to clean up).

Here's what I find:
HKCU\Software\Bitstream\Font Navigator\5.0\
HKLM\SOFTWARE\Bitstream\Font Navigator\5.0\
That's specifically for FN version 5 - go up the tree and remove the Font Navigator branch instead if you don't have any other versions; remove the whole Bitstream branch if Font Navigator is the only sub branch. That applies to both. And that's it. The .exe doesn't have any Registry entry for itself; the three .dlls (dunzip32.dll, Fn3API.dll and Fn3Res.dll) live in the installation directory and don't have (or need) any Registry entry either.

All of which means it's safe to just remove the installation directory to uninstall - but you can remove these two branches from the Registry if you really want to.

Michael Rowley
02-17-2006, 07:21 AM
Steve:

'you'll only have to delete the extra copy you made'

FontNavigator still works, so that will be the case.

Michael Rowley
02-17-2006, 07:26 AM
Marjolein:

It appears that can just delete the FontNavigator folder, with all its subfolders. And a couple of orphaned registry entries are not going to make any difference now.

Franca
02-17-2006, 10:26 AM
Yes, I've got the theory, but the practice lags behind in the case of ATM Deluxe; I remain sceptical that FontNavigator will do any better. Now, if I were starting with a bran-new computer . . .Yes, I can certainly understand that. But FN really does do a better job or I wouldn't have made the switch. Do keep it in mind for the next new computer. Unless you require extensive unicode support as Marjolein does. (I don't.)

One of the reasons why I'm reluctant to use a new font manager is that I've got most of the fonts that I'm ever likely to use organized into groups (quite a lot of groups), and if I adopted FontNavigator, I think I should have to organize all the groups again.I can appreciate that, too. I vividly remember how much work was required to create font groups in ATM Deluxe, and to make any changes to the groups once they were made. Ugh. Making font groups in Font Navigator is 1000 times easier. (Unless ATM Deluxe has made some major changes since I last used it.) Yes, you would have to recreate your font groups, but it would take you no time at all. Just FYI - not trying to talk you into anything. I'm equally resistant to change unless I'm thoroughly convinced the effort will be worthwhile. ;)

Michael Rowley
02-17-2006, 12:11 PM
Franca:

'But FN really does do a better job'

It doesn't seem to do anything in the way of font management that ATM Deluxe (also a bit long in the tooth) doesn't do; is it the drag-and-drop approach that you find attractive?

'Unless ATM Deluxe has made some major changes since I last used it'

I'm using the last version for Windows, v. 4.1; it appeared in 2000. The Mac version had automatic activation, which is barred by Windows, it seems, but I know of no other advantage of that version. The Mac people have Linotype's free FontExplorer, but there must be a good reason why there's no Windows version of that, for it serves the purpose of advertising (like Font Navigator!).

Franca
02-17-2006, 01:39 PM
Michael,

It doesn't seem to do anything in the way of font management that ATM Deluxe (also a bit long in the tooth) doesn't do; is it the drag-and-drop approach that you find attractive?You bet, that'a part of it. In ATM, the process was so cumbersome it was easier to create a whole new font group than try to get rid of a few unwanted fonts in an existing font group. And, as a Draw and Ventura user I did have automatic activation. But in addition to those two pluses, ATM insisted on activating fonts I didn't want activated, behind my back and for no good reason. Opening the Windows\Fonts folder to make sure that no new apps had installed a boatload of unwanted TTF fonts sent ATM into total confusion so that I either had to swear never to open the Windows\Fonts folder or never use ATM for anything but font rasterization. ATM kept shooting itself in the foot, so I chose the latter. ;) Now that XP doesn't need help with font screen display there is no reason for ATM to be on my system at all.

terrie
02-17-2006, 02:19 PM
michael: It worked of course, but I've now got a copy of FontNavigator that cannot be uninstalled by Windows. Not such a good idea, after all!ROFL!!!

One way around that is to do another install using advanced and then only install FN5--to the same directory you are using. That should do the trick...

Terrie

Michael Rowley
02-17-2006, 02:31 PM
Franca:

'Opening the Windows\Fonts folder to make sure that no new apps had installed a boatload of unwanted TTF fonts'

There's no need to do that if you're using ATM Deluxe, because they show up under 'Sets' as 'Outside any set'. I've two fonts like that at the moment, both Franklin Gothic. But the behaviour you have described is behaviour I have experienced, so I'll wait and see . . .

But I have no difficulty in establishing sets or removing fonts from them: it must be a question of one's like or dislike for a particular way of working.

dthomsen8
02-18-2006, 04:28 AM
Indeed, I am fortunate but there may be a way for you to be equally fortunate. I found a site that suggests a way you can get Font Navigator 5. It's up to you whether or not you are game to try it ;):

Font Management Solution (http://www.noscope.com/journal/2004/09/font-management-solution)



So, did anyone try Font Navigator 5?

David

Michael Rowley
02-18-2006, 07:45 AM
David:

'did anyone try Font Navigator 5?'

I did: as instructed, I extracted it from the latest Corel Graphics Suite, since FN is no longer available from Bitstream, though it still has the copyright.

iamback
02-18-2006, 10:39 AM
So, did anyone try Font Navigator 5?I did (http://www.desktoppublishingforum.com/bb/showpost.php?p=23686&postcount=45)