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Michael Rowley
02-13-2005, 01:13 PM
I am having trouble keeping fonts out of Windows\Fonts: no matter that all my fonts are correctly installed in Windows\Fonts\ATMfolder or the PSFonts folder and removed from Windows\Fonts (apart from rather a lot have to be there), they keep coming back. What am I doing wrong?

Perhaps I'm expecting too much of ATM de Luxe, which is getting a bit long in the tooth; perhaps it's powerless against Windows XP.

terrie
02-14-2005, 09:32 AM
I'm not sure I can help both because I'm running W2K but also because I use ATMLight rather than ATM Deluxe...however...

I use FontNavigator and what it does is to put shortcuts in the Winnt\Fonts folder for any "active" fonts...are you *sure* that your not seeing a shortcut for the fonts you see in the \Fonts folder?

Terrie

Franca
02-14-2005, 10:22 AM
I am having trouble keeping fonts out of Windows\Fonts: no matter that all my fonts are correctly installed in Windows\Fonts\ATMfolder or the PSFonts folder and removed from Windows\Fonts (apart from rather a lot have to be there), they keep coming back. What am I doing wrong?

Perhaps I'm expecting too much of ATM de Luxe, which is getting a bit long in the tooth; perhaps it's powerless against Windows XP.I dimly recall other folks having problems with the ATM Deluxe/Win XP combination. I think the recommendation was to do what Terrie is doing - use ATM Light with Bitstream Font Navigator, or dispense with ATM altogether. Supposedly XP does not need it, but I have also heard people say that things worked better with ATM Light. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a true consensus - I also know people using ATM Deluxe successfully with XP!

I currently am using Font Navigator with no ATM installed on my XP Pro system. Even though I always do Custom installs and deselect any fonts if I'm asked, stuff still gets dropped into Windows\Fonts without my permission, so I check it periodically and clean it out. I drag fonts to my Fonts folder and shortcuts are left behind in Windows\Fonts. But it can be fussy! I quit using ATM Deluxe years ago because it was making a mess of things on my system, but your mileage may vary as they say.... Sorry I can't be of more help! I'll see if I can find someone with more current wisdom on this subject.

Michael Rowley
02-14-2005, 11:01 AM
Franca & Terrie:

I am sure that I have many fonts in WinNT\Fonts (I said Windows\Fonts, but the Windows NT users know what I mean) that I know I have made sure that (a) I've copied them to WinNT\Fonts\ATM and (b) that I've removed them afterwards—several times!—from WinNT\Fonts; the only short cuts to fonts in WinNT\Fonts are the to the fonts I have currently got activated in ATM, which include both TT and T1 fonts. The 'escapees' are also shown as active in ATM, but that is because they are in WinNT\Fonts (and are automatically active).

Not all my fonts are in WinNT\Fonts: only the ones that Windows XP doesn't allow me to delete (including the ones that can apparently be deleted but reappear after a pause) and the escapees. The latter appear to be many of the fonts supplied with Windows XP & Office, but not all of them, I think; and most of my 1500 or so fonts are happily in their rightful places. But having so many fonts active is said to slow down some programs.

I have never tried Font Navigator, but perhaps I should, and ditch ATM de Luxe, which Adobe doesn't seem to care about any more. ATM Light wouldn't appear necessary, as Windows NT5 (or later) can deal perfectly well with Type 1 fonts.

terrie
02-14-2005, 11:33 AM
>>Michael: (a) I've copied them to WinNT\Fonts\ATM

Hmmm...wonder if this is the "problem" right here...I have all my fonts stored on a separate drive (H:\Fonts) with a subdir "PSFonts" which is where I directed ATMLight to install the fonts...

Would it be a real pita and a half to move stuff from winnt\fonts\atm to someplace outside the winnt directory? Not sure if it would help but...

Terrie

Michael Rowley
02-14-2005, 12:35 PM
Terrie:

'move stuff from winnt\fonts\atm to someplace outside the winnt directory'

That might help, but the WinNT\Fonts\ATM folder is the one created by ATM de Luxe and specified by Adobe as the one to use for TT fonts. I think just opening the WinNT\Fonts folder may trigger off the reinstallation of the core Microsoft fonts, but to look at the WinNT\Fonts\ATM folder it is necessary to open WinNT\Fonts first! As a rule, there would be no need to open the \ATM folder, but if you want to look at the extended properties of a TT font file (usually to find the 'permissions'), that's the only way, as properties shown inside ATM de Luxe are pretty skimpy.

Windows NT5 has the equivalent of ATM Light already (the ATM driver), but the font manager is in ATM de Luxe.

Font Navigator seems to have been discontinued, though Bitware stil gives technical support for it. Its replacement seems to be FontReserve (from another supplier), which costs $100. I'm taking a look at it—30 days free trial—but I'm loath to part with more money for a font manager when I've already bought ATM de Luxe, for which its makers (Adobe) also claim is the solution to font problems.

terrie
02-14-2005, 01:10 PM
>>michael: That might help, but the WinNT\Fonts\ATM folder is the one created by ATM de Luxe and specified by Adobe as the one to use for TT fonts.

Hmmm...ATMLight let's me specify a user defined folder...I'd be surprised if ATM Deluxe didn't let you do that too...ATMLight has virtually no documentation but I would suspect that ATM Deluxe would have more info...might be worth checking it out?


>> I think just opening the WinNT\Fonts folder may trigger off the reinstallation of the core Microsoft fonts,

It doesn't in W2K...


>>Windows NT5 has the equivalent of ATM Light already (the ATM driver), but the font manager is in ATM de Luxe.

Right...with W2K, if I didn't have MM fonts, I wouldn't need ATM at all...


>>Font Navigator seems to have been discontinued, though Bitware stil gives technical support for it.

Oh...that's right...Font Navigator comes with CorelDraw/Paint...I think Corel must have bought it from BitStream...you don't happen to have that lying around someplace do you??? I'm still using FN3 which I bought from BitStream...not sure if it would run in XP...

Terrie

Gerry Kowarsky
02-14-2005, 02:47 PM
Michael.

When ATM installes a font, the program puts a shortcut in the Fonts folder that points to the actual location of the font. Are you sure you are seeing fonts in the Fonts folder rather than shortcuts to fonts?

Gerry

Michael Rowley
02-14-2005, 03:23 PM
Gerry:

'Are you sure you are seeing fonts in the Fonts folder rather than shortcuts to fonts?'

Yes, unless Windows is sneakily not putting those little arrows next to some of the icons! All the fonts deliberately activated by me in ATM de Luxe have shortcuts in the WinNT\Fonts folder; the fonts that I have just left there & the escapees have the actual font files.

I'm going to explore the possibility of having my ATM folder in a folder other than WinNT\Fonts, which might be OK (the User Guide isn't terribly clear on that point).

I've downloaded Font Reserve, though it looks as though it might be not so easy to use as ATM de Luxe; I have to make up my mind one way or the other, because apparently you can't use it with ATM de Luxe installed. Decisions, decisions . . .

Robin Springall
02-15-2005, 04:41 PM
There's also HP's FontSmart (aka SmontFart of course) which came free with HP laser printers for a while, and lets you load and unload fonts quickly and easily. You can't create font sets, though. We use it all the time and love it.

DickM
02-16-2005, 07:12 AM
The font manager of choice in Windows is now Font Reserve, IMO. It can handle all the Open Type fonts that Font Navigator ignores. Obviously, you use only ATM Lite on XP and W2K systems that don't need the Type1 rasterizer.

I only keep "system" fonts that I want to have installed ALL the time no matter what in the Windows/Fonts folder. Nevertheless, others will constantly show up. Usually it's because you have installed a new application like TurboTax that plunks in a bunch of fonts that it needs. I copy them off to my font "library" and add a "group" to put them back when needed, and then use Windows Control Panel/Fonts to delete the unwanted copies.

There are a lot of fonts included with MS Office that get installed even if you turn them off during the install process. Some are absolutely required, but many can be copied elsewhere and then deleted. If you delete any one of the "magic" ones (Haettenschweiler is one of my "favorites"), then the next time you run any Office application--even Outlook--the installer will put them ALL back in. The must-haves are different with different Office versions, so it takes some trial and error to determine which ones can be gotten rid off. Then make a master list so you don't have to go through the process again. Every time you do an Office Update for the security fixes, you'll have to clean them out again. MS has a handy font look-up at http://www.microsoft.com/typography/fonts/default.aspx that will tell you which applications are "responsible" for TT fonts that you find.

Michael Rowley
02-16-2005, 11:41 AM
Dick:

'The font manager of choice in Windows is now Font Reserve'

I've looked at the manual for Font Reserve, and although it looks quite good, I can't see at the moment any advantage over ATM de Luxe, which I have been using for a several years now. Do you know of any? Moving the fonts out of WinNT\Fonts\ATM seems to have stopped fonts from returning to WinNT\Fonts when I don't want them to, but time will tell . . . For the moment I've decided to stick with ATM de Luxe.

'the next time you run any Office application--even Outlook--the installer will put them ALL back in'

I haven't found that with Office 2003, which between the different Office applications comes with a large number of fonts—some useful, the majority useless for me. There are though more fonts that Windows XP (or Office 2003) seems to hang on to, and a few that FrameMaker iinsists on having; and Windows or Office updates occasionally introduce a new version of an existing font that automatically gets put in WinNT\Fonts.

I've found the lists on Microsoft's typography site not terribly reliable, mainly because it gives fonts I should have (because I've got those applications) but cannot find anywhere.

hergeekness
02-16-2005, 02:35 PM
Dick, or anyone reading this thread, any special reason you'd run Font Reserve instead of Suitcase?

I'm working with a number of clients moving to a mixed-platform, InDesign/InCopy workflow and a big issue is font management. Suddenly IT needs to get all the PCs (running InCopy) loaded with the same fonts used by the Mac-based designers (running InDesign). A scary new world.

One client, a book publishing firm, tried Suitcase server. Works fine on Macs, but the PCs were having a terrible time. So now they load them manually onto the PCs but there's still issues.

Another client who is running Windows 2000 on 20 PCs and is probably going to move to XP asked about ATM Deluxe, which I thought *did* work fine on XPs but now from what I read here, maybe not? (I have other clients running XP and ATM Deluxe).

It's a huge issue. Any help or definitive articles or even pointers to reviews of PC font management software would be greatly, greatly appreciated!

AM

marlene
02-16-2005, 02:38 PM
I know you are reluctant -- understandably -- to shell out more money for a font manager, but thought I would post this anyway just as general information if anyone is in the market for FontNav.

The way I got my current version of FontNav was to buy a cheap, older version of CorelDraw. FontNav was part of the bundle. I bought a shrink-wrapped, legit (I was able to register it) CorelDraw retail version 9 package on eBay for $55, and that was in 2001. It's possible that earlier versions (which would be even cheaper now) also included the newest version of FontNav.

It's also a good way to get a bunch of Bitstream fonts. Although I think I remember someone saying that the more recent versions of CorelDraw no longer include the PostScript versions. (But I could be totally disremembering that.)

However, since FontNav doesn't handle OT, I'm eager to hear what everyone says about FontReserve.

mxh

DickM
02-16-2005, 06:42 PM
Marlene,

I have all Windows PCs -- no Macs -- so Suitcase isn't really an option!

Font Navigator can't handle Open Type fonts with the extended character sets so I had to spend the money to get Font Reserve after acquiring a bunch of OTFs as part of Adobe's beta test program. It's the the most robust font manager I've used but the interface took some getting used to. It has some nice features such as being able to activate fonts only for the current session and understanding the difference between "system" and other fonts. The master library listing shows a lot more information which helps if you have a large library (mine has 10K+). You can easily resort the listing by any one of the data fields--just like in Windows explorer file listings--which is really handy. One disadvantage is that there isn't an easy way to transfer font groups to another PC.

I haven't used ATM Deluxe for so long (I was one of the FontMinder original beta team back in the early 90's), I can't remember what I hated about it. I'm really surprised to see some people here that actually like it and are still using it. Maybe the Mac version is better?

John Spragens
02-16-2005, 08:52 PM
The unfortunate limitation of Font Navigator is that it doesn't know about OpenType and can't manage OT fonts. Sure wish it could.

DTP Guy
02-17-2005, 01:04 AM
Actually, not quite true, as FN 5 does handle OT fonts. The trick is, however, that FN 5 is only bundled with CorelDRAW 12.

Michael Rowley
02-17-2005, 07:49 AM
Dick:

'Font Navigator can't handle Open Type fonts with the extended character sets '

This might be naive of me, but what has a font manager to do with the character set in the font? I've got lots of OT fonts with Arabic, Greek, etc. character sets but nothing 'extended' in the Latin sets. OT fonts can have any number of characters up to umpteen (I forget the latest number), but they may have no more than 256.

DickM
02-17-2005, 07:16 PM
Michael:

What I meant to say was that Font Navigator can't handle OT fonts at all, regardless of the character set. Most of the T1 based OT fonts I've seen have extended character sets (extended in the sense of having more than 192/256 glyphs available within Windows), so I tend to associate the two. Sorry for the confusion.[Someone said that the special version bundled with Corel can, but I wasn't aware of this]. Of course, TT fonts had this capability before OT.

Since W2K we don't need an add-in program to actually do rasterization of T1 fonts, (with the exception of multiple master T1s, which is the only reason for continuing to have ATM Lite running) so its function is (1) cataloging a large number of fonts, (2) providing an easy way to "activate" individual fonts or groups of fonts, (3) handling file management chores, and (4) displaying and printing sample or specimen sheets. Obviously, the font manager you choose has got to be able to handle the types of fonts you have on your system. The last commercially available version of Font Navigator is completely blind to Open Type font files which, IMO, is a show-stopper.

Before I switched to Font Reserve, I had both Font Navigator and ATM Deluxe running under Win98 and Win2K. They don't get along very well so you had to set up ATM with the appropriate settings and then have FontNav catalog the fonts. If you re-opened ATM Deluxe it usually messed up FontNav.

Michael Rowley
02-18-2005, 08:07 AM
Dick:

I haven't used FontNavigator or even looked at its specification, because its now been superseded by FontReserve. ATM de Luxe does handle OT/T1 fonts, which of course have 'OTF' as their file extensions; to recognize OT/TT fonts yourself you have to know that they're OpenType or look at the icon in Windows, as they have the same 'TTF' extension as 'ordinary' TT fonts. This to me constitutes 'handling' OpenType fonts, since I don't know much about it.

I'm only a single user, and it doesn't matter to me whether I use FontReserve or ATM de Luxe, but if I were running a network I can see the advantage of having FontReserve Server (not FontReserve) of course.

Windows 2000 and XP have the ATM driver, so they don't need ATM Light at all to run PS fonts; the only advantage of ATM Light would seem to be if you have Adobe's multiple master fonts.

All font management programs seem to work similarly, arranging fonts in sets that you can activate and deactivate at will, so it's difficult to decide on any one of them—except on price or the fact that you have one already. Incidentally, Suitcase is now available for Windows, but FontReserve may be better—it's certainly newer.

JVegVT
02-18-2005, 02:43 PM
>> I'm still using FN3 which I bought from BitStream...not sure if it would run in XP... >>

It does. Remember there is very little difference between W2K and XP as far as operation goes. W2K is NT 5; XP is NT 5.1.
--Judy M.

John Spragens
02-18-2005, 05:38 PM
Good news/bad news.

I didn't realize there'd been so many versions since the v. 2 I have. Would very much like to get v. 5. But I don't have any need for CD12.

DickM
02-18-2005, 06:56 PM
Michael,

I've got quite a few MM fonts, so I'm stuck with running ATM Lite.

My bias against ATM as a font manager goes way back. I was a user of the shareware product that came before Font Minder (in those days ATM was just a rasterizer and had absolutely no font management functions) and was part of the Font Minder development team. So naturally I felt quite a bond with the product <g>. Font Navigator was the follow-on product developed by some of the original people but after several corporate changes. It's now basically abandoned, so I had to find something that would work with the new OTF fonts.

It's been difficult adapting to FontReserve simply because I was so closely associated with the prior Windows font managers. OTOH, my font collection hobby has been on hold for several years now because of other priorities in life. I hope to find some time this year to get back and to learn how to use FontLab and fix up some of my old Fontographer fonts that don't like WinXP.

But, heck, if you are happy with ATM Deluxe there's no reason to mess with something else.

Michael Rowley
02-19-2005, 10:01 AM
Dick:

'if you are happy with ATM Deluxe there's no reason to mess with something else'

If I were a Mac user, I would have to abandon ATM Deluxe (I'll have to concede the American spelling of 'de luxe'), as I gather Adobe didn't develop it for OS 10. Even the Windows version is not being pushed now, though I think you can still get it. However, it does what I want, which is just arrange my fonts in sets that I can deactivate when I don't need them; I probably wouldn't buy it now.

terrie
02-19-2005, 12:19 PM
>>jvegvt: It does.

I figured it did...

Terrie

mact
02-23-2005, 09:56 AM
<<ever, since FontNav doesn't handle OT, I'm eager to hear what everyone says about FontReserve.>>

neither does Font Reserve.

FR Win is a loser IMHO. It is clumsy and not as easy to use as Font Nav. It is also a dead product (unless you expect Extensis to continue it)

michelen
02-23-2005, 10:22 AM
Hello Dick,

I was a Font Minder beta-tester. Font Navigator, too. Those were the days. I used Font Navigator, quite happily, until I installed Windows XP Pro.

As odd as it sounds, I am currently NOT using a font manager with Windows XP Pro. I paid for a new, XP-friendly version of ATM, but after a while I just started installing my fonts through the control panel.

Does Font Reserve have auto-activation, or is that just not possible with any Windows font manager?

Best,
Michele