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Stan Brandt
01-18-2006, 08:55 PM
I finally am upgrading from Windows 98 to XP. I have a few hundred fonts to move to the new XP machine -- can I simply copy them to the new fonts folder, or do I have to follow some kind of installation process? (I'll be using MS-Publisher 2003).

Thanks in advance!

--Stan Brandt

marlene
01-19-2006, 12:06 AM
Are these Postscript or TrueType fonts? Or some of both?

Do you use font management software? ATM?

When I moved from an older OS to XP, I just copied the font files to the new machine and let Font Navigator "find" them and add them to its catalog.

But I'm sure someone here will know how to move fonts if you're not using a font manager.

mxh

Michael Rowley
01-19-2006, 08:48 AM
Marlene:

'how to move fonts if you're not using a font manager'

I'm pretty sure that Windows XP can find any fonts on the hard disk and instal them in its font folder; the only reason for having a font manager is to try to stop it doing that.

LoisWakeman
01-19-2006, 09:37 AM
Stan, on the new machine, find the Windows > Fonts folder, and the file menu in Explorer then has a new menu item "Install fonts" where you can borwse for the ones you copied off the old machine.

You can just copy them there and that usually works too.

Steve Rindsberg
01-19-2006, 06:48 PM
What I'd suggest:

Copy all of the fonts from your Fonts folder on the old computer to a new folder on the new computer.

You can then do as Lois suggests and install them to the Fonts folder on the new computer. Let Windows copy the fonts to the Fonts folder if it asks.

Why put them in a separate folder first? In case you decide you want to remove/delete a font or twenty, you don't have to remember to back them up first. Just blitz from the Fonts folder; you've already got backup in that spare original directory.

If you use Type1/Postscript fonts, there may be a bit of add'l juggling required to keep Windows happy. You no longer need ATM software in order to use these fonts, though. If you have any of them, let us know.

marlene
01-19-2006, 09:50 PM
the only reason for having a font manager is to try to stop it doing that.

I wish I could figure out how leave XP out of the equation when managing my fonts!

I've tried moving TT fonts out of the XP fonts folder into a separate "TT fonts" folder, but some of 'em -- prolly the system fonts -- don't wanna move.

I spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to get the TT version of Courier uninstalled so I could use my PS version, and it was hopeless. I assume XP is protecting the TT version from me and FontNav.

If I even peek into the XP fonts folder, a whole bunch of useless TT fonts install themselves again, and I have to go through them in FontNav and uninstall them. I did manage to move a bunch of them out of the XP fonts folder, but have not poked my nose into that folder again. Don't want to stir up the hornet's nest of extraneous fonts.

I find XP font management inscrutable but maybe I'm just not trying ...

mxh

Michael Rowley
01-20-2006, 09:35 AM
Marlene:

'some of 'em -- prolly the system fonts -- don't wanna move'

There are two sets on fonts you can't move from the Windows XP fonts file: the system fonts, plus Times New Roman & Arial & one or two others that ATM Deluxe didn't name (because it wasn't updated after Windows 2000); and the fonts that some applications insist on (FrameMaker can't do without a few). But apart from that, TT fonts tend to creep back, no matter how often they're removed from the official Windows fonts file. It's infuriating, isn't it? A drastic solution is to use only OFT fonts or Type 1 fonts and refuse to distribute documents in Word (which won't embed OFT fonts, even though they're converted to TTF fonts).

Stan Brandt
01-21-2006, 08:14 PM
Steve, thanks to you and Lois for your valuable advice!

--Stan Brandt

dthomsen8
01-22-2006, 02:12 AM
Marlene,

I have a font manager on my Win98SE computer, but not on the WinXP Pro computer. In both cases, I have far too many fonts, and little control. Your experience is discouraging, though.

Perhaps it is just another case where Microsoft Knows Better. It just seems to be part of their philosophy to insist on their own way, and they control the operating system, making it hard to defeat them. It makes sense that the OS requires certain fonts in the system fonts folder, but beyond that, why not allow the user to get rid of unwanted fonts, either permanently or just uninstalled until actually needed?

Peeking into the fonts folder with Windows Explorer is a demonstration of their control, no ability to work with it as is possible in user created folders.

If the people in this forum don't know how to control fonts, I don't know who would, though.


I wish I could figure out how leave XP out of the equation when managing my fonts!

I've tried moving TT fonts out of the XP fonts folder into a separate "TT fonts" folder, but some of 'em -- prolly the system fonts -- don't wanna move.

I spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to get the TT version of Courier uninstalled so I could use my PS version, and it was hopeless. I assume XP is protecting the TT version from me and FontNav.

If I even peek into the XP fonts folder, a whole bunch of useless TT fonts install themselves again, and I have to go through them in FontNav and uninstall them. I did manage to move a bunch of them out of the XP fonts folder, but have not poked my nose into that folder again. Don't want to stir up the hornet's nest of extraneous fonts.

I find XP font management inscrutable but maybe I'm just not trying ...

mxh

Steve Rindsberg
01-22-2006, 12:32 PM
Out of curiosity, which fonts have you tried to remove and been prevented? Given time, I might could have a go at it here with one of the Sacrificial Lambs.

"Microsoft knows better?" Well, yes, they do know better than the average user - no, let's make that all but the most sophisticated users -- what fonts the system relies on (at least to the extent that some parts of the GUI might start to look right pie-eyed if the font were removed).

Robin Springall
01-22-2006, 02:34 PM
Place a shortcut to c:\windows\fonts in your Send To folder. Then, when a client gives you a job and remembers to include the fonts (ha ha) you can select 'em, right-click, choose Send To, then Windows Fonts. The fonts will be installed (copied, rather than moved). Quick and easy.

Michael Rowley
01-22-2006, 03:35 PM
Steve:

'they do know better than . . . all but the most sophisticated users'

I'm not at all a sophisticated user, but I have noticed that a lot of fonts seem to creep back into the 'proper' WinNT\Fonts folder, even though only (!) about thirty fonts are essential to the Windows system. It may be as Marlene says, that you only have to peek at the WinNT\Fonts folder to mess it up after carefully going through the laborious procedure that is recommended for ATM Deluxe users; it seems like superstition, but you never know. Perhaps Microsoft explains it somewhere.

Steve Rindsberg
01-23-2006, 04:39 PM
Which fonts creep back in? I'd be curious to know.

I haven't noticed the problem but then I don't mess with fonts nearly as much as I used to when I did service bureau work. And glad of it!

But I do have things set up here such that I can create virtual computers fairly easily and could check to see what fonts are in the Fonts folder in a virgin system (and which reassert themselve after being banished).

marlene
01-23-2006, 11:50 PM
... fonts you can't move from the Windows XP fonts file: the system fonts, plus Times New Roman & Arial & one or two others

What I'm working on now is trying to have ONLY those mandatory fonts in the Windows/Fonts folder, and all other TT fonts in a completely separate folder. (And of course all PS and OT fonts in a completely separate location, actually on a different drive.)

In the process of trying to move non-mandatory fonts out of the Windows/Fonts folder, I inadvertantly deleted a bunch of them (sometimes only certain family members). But being cautious/paranoid/pessimistic, I had made a copy of the entire folder onto another drive, so I should have backups of everything I blew away.

Unfortunately, I had created TT Fonts folders on both my C: and D: drives. I tried to move all of the TT fonts into just one TT Fonts folder, but some refused to budge, even after I shut down all apps.

Then, in a brilliant stroke of lunacy, I somehow managed to blow away an essential font -- possibly Arial -- and suddenly all my menus and icons had no text. <LOL>

After I started breathing again, I guessed -- correctly -- that a reboot would fix that.

It did. And I stopped screwing around with fonts at that point. <g>

Fontessa (?)

marlene
01-24-2006, 12:00 AM
If the people in this forum don't know how to control fonts, I don't know who would, though.

I can't say I'm exactly controlling my fonts, but I have beaten many of them into submission.

I'm trying to have only the mandatory fonts in my Windows/Fonts folder (see my message to Michael). And, by and large, I think I'm getting there.

I plan to herd all non-mandatory TT fonts into one separate "TT Fonts" folder (unfortunately, at the moment I have two such folders on different drives, and some of the fonts are resisting my attempts to consolidate them), and of course my PS fonts are in a separate PSFONTS folder.

I was confused as to how to uninstall fonts from the Windows/Fonts folder -- actually, I still am. Maybe it can't be done. I ended up deleting a bunch of them by mistake (got backups, though). I'm foggy on whether or not I can delete the shortcuts in the Windows/Fonts folder. At this point I don't think I want to try. <g>

Over the weekend I installed a newer version of FontNav (I just upgraded from CorelDraw 9 to 12, which includes FontNav 5) that handles OT fonts, so that is definitely an improvement.

I still get confused as to where I should put OT fonts, though. Apparently some are TT fonts in OT clothing, and some are PS fonts in OT clothing. Sometimes I see OT icons on .ttf fonts. It's all bewildering.

But my fonts are better organized today than they were last Friday!

mxh

marlene
01-24-2006, 12:06 AM
Which fonts creep back in?

Luckily for me, Arial (there are probably others).

I managed to delete Arial (I was probably trying to relocate it) and all my buttons, bows, icons, menus and windows lost their powers of speech. A reboot fixed it, and put Arial back in its place.

IIRC (and I might not -- it's all a blur), I had discovered one Arial in the Windows Fonts folder and its three siblings (italic, etc.) in a different folder (one of my TT fonts folders). This made both FontNav and all my apps refuse to see anything but Arial regular. The other family members refused to speak to it.

Oh, wait. Maybe it wasn't Arial. Might have been Trebuchet or Verdana. I shoulda written it down. I can't remember zip.

Anyway, I don't 'zackly remember what I done, but at the moment, with the help of my brand-new FontNav 5, things seem to be reasonably under control.

Fontessa

iamback
01-24-2006, 02:15 AM
Then, in a brilliant stroke of lunacy, I somehow managed to blow away an essential font -- possibly Arial -- and suddenly all my menus and icons had no text. <LOL>Probably Microsoft Sans Serif - unless you customized your desktop. BTDT. Getting rid of the usually-hidden Marlett font (Windows doesn't easily yield to making its existence known, but some utilities can show it) is a treat, too. :D

dthomsen8
01-24-2006, 08:34 AM
Probably Microsoft Sans Serif - unless you customized your desktop. BTDT. Getting rid of the usually-hidden Marlett font (Windows doesn't easily yield to making its existence known, but some utilities can show it) is a treat, too. :D

Both the control panel Fonts and Word show Marlett for me. You are right, though, it is just symbols and probably useless.

iamback
01-24-2006, 08:59 AM
Both the control panel Fonts and Word show Marlett for me. You are right, though, it is just symbols and probably useless.Not useless - essential! Look closely at those symbols, and then look at your typical window with minimize, maximize/normalize and close buttons, and scroll bars. Notice anything? ;)

Michael Rowley
01-25-2006, 02:27 PM
Marjolein:

'Not useless - essential!'

It certainly is: I once removed Marlett from Windows 3, Windows 3 became quite unrecognizable.

Michael Rowley
01-25-2006, 02:39 PM
Steve:

'I do have things set up here such that I can create virtual computers fairly easily and could check to see what fonts are in the Fonts folder in a virgin system'

The trouble is not with the fonts that Microsoft insists must be in the WinNT\Fonts folder, but with the fonts that creep back, apparently at random. I say apparently, because I found fonts in that file that definitely weren't there at Microsoft's behest; many of them were Serif fonts, that might be important to PagePlus users, and I installed PagePlus last summer. However, there were others, but not all my TT fonts, thank goodness.

I now do not open the WinNT\Fonts folder: I can get warning of stray fonts from the font lists in Word etc.

Michael Rowley
01-25-2006, 02:51 PM
Marlene:

'Might have been Trebuchet'

I think Trebuchet is a 'must have' font in WinNT\Fonts. But usually you can't remove Arial, Times NR, Trebuchet, and any of the bit fonts. The list of fonts that can't be deactivated and must be in the WinNT\Fonts folder is given by Adobe (for ATM Deluxe), but there have been a few additions since Adobe made that list. I think the up-to-date list is given by Microsoft (somewhere), but I find that trial and error is quickest: either Windows won't let you remove them (Access denied!) or else you can remove them, but they pop up again almost straight away.

Michael Rowley
01-25-2006, 03:00 PM
Marlene:

'I still get confused as to where I should put OT fonts'

If they're T1-flavoured OT fonts they have the extension OTF, and are put with the PS fonts. If they're TT-flavoured OT fonts they still get the TTF extension, and can be kept in a C:\TT-fonts folder (except the ones used for Windows, but as long as those are in the WinNT\Fonts folder, you can put duplicates with all the rest of your TT fonts.

marlene
01-25-2006, 11:39 PM
Probably Microsoft Sans Serif

Could have been that. Or Verdana or Trebuchet. I was fooling with all of them, fool that I am.

mxh

marlene
01-25-2006, 11:39 PM
I think Trebuchet is a 'must have' font in WinNT\Fonts.

Yes, I think so, and I am going to let XP have it.

mxh

marlene
01-25-2006, 11:45 PM
If they're T1-flavoured OT fonts they have the extension OTF, and are put with the PS fonts.

A bunch of OTFs are currently residing in the PSFONTS folder, and more are in an OTF subfolder of the PSFONTS folder. Not sure if I created that OTF subfolder or if a hidden force created it for me. Probably would be logical to herd all the OTFs into that folder, so I can more easily keep an eye on them.

mxh

Michael Rowley
01-26-2006, 08:34 AM
Marlene:

'A bunch of OTFs are currently residing in the PSFONTS folder, and more are in an OTF subfolder of the PSFONTS folder.'

All mine are with the PFBs in the main PSfonts folder, but it doesn't seem to matter; the PSfonts folder itself was created to suit AFM Deluxe. Nowadays I don't buy T1 fonts if I can avoid it, and most of thr OFT fonts are too expensive, though I have the usual collection of Adobe OFT fonts that were 'given' away with even more expensive Adobe programs.

Steve Rindsberg
01-26-2006, 01:34 PM
Ah. "Creeping in at random" and "some app or other installed them, as apps will" are different animals, at least in my part of the zoo.

One of the beauties of using a good font manager is that you can pare down the fonts to just the windows essentials prior to installing a new app, then afterward have a look in the fonts folder to see what mischief the app has brought with it.

Not that I'm that anywhere NEAR that ambitious any longer ...

Michael Rowley
01-26-2006, 04:32 PM
Steve:

'One of the beauties of using a good font manager is that you can pare down the fonts to just the windows essentials prior to installing a new app'

Hmm. It's about a week since I cleared out my WinNT\Fonts file, and so far the only interloper is Comic Sans. Comic Sans is the last font I would ever use, but it's such a favourite that I suspect it has been raised to the Microsoft canon. FrameMaker insists on Franklin Gothic, which is the only PS font that's always in WinNT\Fonts.

As to clearing the WinNt\Fonts folder of everything inessential before installing a new application: well, that's a counsel of perfection for me, although I do think of it afterwards. And what do you regard as a 'good' font manager? I still use ATM Deluxe (although Adobe can't spell 'de luxe' properly), as I haven't found anything better yet; I suppose those responsible for the development of font managers haven't had time to work on a new Windows font manager.

Steve Rindsberg
01-27-2006, 01:30 PM
The Mysterious Case of the Creeping Comic Sans ... odd!

As to font managers, when I last used one, I also used ATM Le Ducks and we got on well together.

But that was when I also needed ATM for PS fonts. Now, I'd probably use Font Navigator (I used its predecessor before Bitstream bought them out and it still makes sense to me).

Michael Rowley
01-27-2006, 02:59 PM
Steve:

'The Mysterious Case of the Creeping Comic Sans'

. . . and Impact, which I now see is there as well. And did I mention Book Antiqua? That is also impossible to remove from WinNT\Fonts; although it appears to allow its removal, it just pops back after it has been removed. I wonder if some MS Office programs insist on certain fonts, as FrameMaker does (though that has to have Century Gothic, not Franklin G. as I mistakenly reported).

I've 'always' had ATM, but it wasn't until I wanted to have more control over my fonts that I bought ATM Deluxe, and by that time I had Windows NT5, and ATM wasn't needed. ATM D. has modest capabities, but it's adequate. I've read the instructions for Mac 10, and those are Byzantine in comparison with Windows, although it would sometimes be helpful if the Windows system were a little more revealing

Steve Rindsberg
01-28-2006, 09:13 PM
It strikes me that it'd be entertaining to have a little program that, once started, enumerates the fonts in the fonts folder every so often and remembers how many it found between looks, then pops up a message when anything changes.

Well, why not? I had a few minutes, was curious so ...

ftp://rdpslides.com/FONTWATCH.EXE

It's a little crude, but if left running while you run other apps, it could alert you when something adds/removes fonts.

Up to you to work out what got added ...

Michael Rowley
01-29-2006, 07:54 AM
Steve:

'It's a little crude'

I assume that it's not so crude as to freeze Win XP. Thanks, it will be really useful.

Steve Rindsberg
01-29-2006, 10:13 AM
So crude as to freeze WinXP? Only in the first few stages while I was writing it.

You learn a lot of wonderfully varied ways NOT to do these things on the way to finding a way that might just work.

Be warned that it won't respond immediately when you click the Stop button (which you won't see until you click Start). It might take a second or two. Patience.

Michael Rowley
01-29-2006, 01:00 PM
Steve:

'It might take a second or two. Patience'

It doen't take long for Fontwatch to find that it's looking for the wrong folder! The folder wanted (on my computer) is C:\WINNT\Fonts. I found the place in the file where it says 'c:\windows\fonts' but I haven't tried to change it.

Steve Rindsberg
01-29-2006, 02:58 PM
>>It doen't take long for Fontwatch to find that it's looking for the wrong folder!

That's why the text box is there. It's up to you to tell it where to look before you click Start. If I were charging money for it, it'd work out where Windows is and find the fonts folder on its own. For free, the wetware has to help with the housework.

Michael Rowley
01-29-2006, 03:28 PM
Steve:

'It's up to you to tell it where to look before you click Start'

I do, but Fontwatch doesn't seem to take any notice: it still stops immediately, and still shows 'XX fonts'. Possibly you didn't make it foolproof enough for an old fool.

Steve Rindsberg
01-29-2006, 10:42 PM
Foolproof? I don't delude myself that this is even possible. Nature's fool output outpaces our best efforts.

But let's see if we can sort out between us what two fools can do to confuse Fontwatch.

Here: I deliberately typed in the wrong path to the font folder and clicked start.
That grays out the font folder and interval text boxes (by design).
The Start button text turns into Stop.

If no fonts are found on the path, it more or less sits there staring until I click Stop.

At that point, I can enter a different path and if I enter the correct path to the windows font folder, it reports the number it found.

Note that it only looks for TTF fonts.

Hmm. Do you have Windows set to hide file extensions and/or system files?
That might have side effects here.

I'd try this on the new XP Pro box I'm building but -- speaking of font weirdness -- this silly thing's got only a few TT fonts; other than Tahoma, none of the Windows basic set. You get too many, I'm missing nearly all of them.

There's a kind of equilibrium in this. Not one I'm fond of, I have to admit ...

Michael Rowley
01-30-2006, 08:17 AM
Steve:

'if I enter the correct path to the windows font folder'

It's all right: I've found my error (error?). I didn't realize that C:\WinNT\Fonts was wrong, but C:\WinNT\Fonts\ is spot on. It works now, and said there are 45 (TTF) fonts in the folder.

I really didn'nt know that the final '\' was critical for some programs.

By the way, Windows tries only to seize control over TTF fonts; other types of font (such as T1 or OFT fonts) it doesn't care about (but it does gives shortcuts to those that have been activated).

Steve Rindsberg
01-30-2006, 07:40 PM
>>I really didn'nt know that the final '\' was critical for some programs

Oh damn. In theory, it is for any program that looks for files. But it's the programmer's job to make it not the user's job to worry about. That one I'd intended to check for and fix (or at least mention it in the non-docs). And completely forgot about it.

Anyhow, now that it's working, as long as it doesn't get in the way, let it sit around and see if it kicks up when you run other programs.

It'll look at the fonts folder every "interval" seconds and recount the TTF fonts there.
If the count changes between peeks, it'll start flashing itself in the task bar; when you click it there, it'll show you the previous and new font counts.

By the way, when you mention that Windows doesn't play games with your OTF fonts, are these PS fonts in OTF clothing, or TTF in OTF trappings? Quite a few of the fonts that come with XP are OTF, though they have a TTF extension.

Michael Rowley
01-31-2006, 08:59 AM
Steve:

'Quite a few of the fonts that come with XP are OTF, though they have a TTF extension'

A TTF file remains a TTF file even when it may correctly described as 'open type'; in Windows, it may have the 'OT' icon (e.g. in WinNT\Fonts). A PS file can be Type 1, and retains the well-known 'a' icon; an OTS file still has the Type 1 descriptors (3-point) but has also the essential tables of an OT file (which a TTF file has anyway).

Steve Rindsberg
01-31-2006, 09:53 PM
>>A TTF file remains a TTF file even when it may correctly described as 'open type'; in Windows, it may have the 'OT' icon (e.g. in WinNT\Fonts). A PS file can be Type 1, and retains the well-known 'a' icon; an OTS file still has the Type 1 descriptors (3-point) but has also the essential tables of an OT file (which a TTF file has anyway).

Right. I only meant to point out that if the file doesn't have a TTF extension, FontWatch won't. Watch it. That is.

Michael Rowley
02-01-2006, 08:29 AM
Steve:

'Quite a few of the fonts that come with XP are OTF, though they have a TTF extension.'

I was pointing out that no TTF-flavoured font file has an OTF extension, which is reserved for T1-flavoured fonts. I don't really understand why, but suppose it was agreed between Adobe, Apple, & Microsoft.

I haven't thought about files with no extension, but Windows recognizes whether one with a TTF extension is an OT file or not, which it clearly does not do just from the extension. I didn't expect such sophistication from FontWatch! But don't worry, I haven't ever seen a TTF file without an extension and certainly have none.