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marlene
09-29-2005, 06:33 PM
A client asked me to use a "bold, sans serif, hard-edged, strong, heavy, masculine" typeface on a brochure cover. It will also be used for heads and stuff throughout the brochure.

Right now I'm tinkering with Helvetica Neue Black. If it were any manlier, it would be called Helvetica Neue Black and Blue. Any other suggestions for manly typefaces? The other sans (sanses?) I've looked at just aren't heavy enough.

And what would be a good text font? I'm a little reluctant to use Helvetica for everything. Normally I'd try Utopia, but the client wants to get away from it. Most of the other serif text fonts I've looked at seem too delicate to go with the H.N. Black.

mxh

donmcc
09-29-2005, 06:59 PM
Univers has a nice black. Also would the client like a slab serif, which to me is a very male looking type, especially bold like Rockwell. While they suggested sans, they might mean "not normal serif" and like a slab, which are often (nearly) a sans with a thick serif.

Don McCahill

ElyseC
09-29-2005, 08:43 PM
Probably not the look you want, since it's a serif, but the first masculine font that sprang to mind reading your message was Aachen Bold. I can fairly hear it grunt every time I see it! ;-)

Franca
09-29-2005, 08:56 PM
Univers has a nice black. Also would the client like a slab serif, which to me is a very male looking type, especially bold like Rockwell. While they suggested sans, they might mean "not normal serif" and like a slab, which are often (nearly) a sans with a thick serif.I was also going to suggest a slab serif. Great minds and all that.... ;) And Rockwell, I think, is about the manliest with a very black extra bold.

marlene
09-29-2005, 10:09 PM
I'll try Univers. They definitely want a sans (no slabs). They've already seen the Helvetica and liked it, but wanted to see other options. I'm also showing them a few (Frutiger, Formata, Syntax) just so they have something to reject.

I suspect they will want the Helvetica -- I'll know tomorrow -- and will then need to find a text font to go with it.

mxh

marlene
09-29-2005, 10:10 PM
Yeah, the slabs are masculine, but they definitely want something simple -- no serifs.

mxh

marlene
09-29-2005, 10:13 PM
Actually, I used Aachen Bold for the event logo that was used for years, before the new branding initiative banished all event logos.

I think the Helvetica Black will be the winner, but I don't think I want to use Helvetica for the text. Might be too boring, all that Helvetica ...

mxh

donmcc
09-29-2005, 10:18 PM
If you are showing multiple faces, I'd throw Rockwell in. You mentioned to France that the goal was simple, and Rockwell slabs are simple ... more than Aachen. Sometimes the customers do not know what they want until they see it.

Of course, you know best, having spoken to them ... it is just a suggestion.

Don McCahill

Ian Petersen
09-29-2005, 11:10 PM
Franklin Gothic is as butch as they get. Perhaps Akzidenz Grotesk.

Franca
09-30-2005, 01:23 AM
Yes, we use Franklin Gothic quite a bit for our manly motorsports stuff. Enough that I'm now really quite sick of it and didn't even think to suggest it! Marlene, that might be the answer for your text, even if you don't choose it for headlines.

John Nolan
09-30-2005, 05:26 AM
Have a look at Font Bureau's Bureau Grotesque, or Knockout from Hoefler & Frere-Jones.

ktinkel
09-30-2005, 06:48 AM
A client asked me to use a "bold, sans serif, hard-edged, strong, heavy, masculine" typeface on a brochure cover.Check out Akzidenz Grotesk. The redone Berthold (http://www.bertholdtypes.com/bq_library/AkzidenzGrotesk.html) version looks good. It was the “jobbing sans” that was the spiritual precursor to Helvetica, and it has always seemed more masculine to me — less curvaceous in some details, and more down-to-earth and workman-like. And it is really in style these days, which may be a selling point (or not).

And if the client wants a sans serif text font (a bad idea in my view — too monotonous on the page, among other things), because Akzidenz has a smaller x-height it is a bit easier to set well.

And what would be a good text font? I'm a little reluctant to use Helvetica for everything. Normally I'd try Utopia, but the client wants to get away from it.What about Walbaum? Lovely font (I also like the Berthold version (http://www.bertholdtypes.com/bq_library/90096.html)). It is strong enough to use with the mechanical sans serifs you are considering, and from a similar period, but it is also a very sexy face, which should contrast nicely with the staid sans.

John Nolan
09-30-2005, 07:29 AM
I'd be more inclined to Storm's Walbaum (http://www.stormtype.com/walbaum.html). Beautifully done, OpenType with broad language support, and a less restrictive EULA:
Storm's (http://www.stormtype.com/licenceCz.html)
Berthold's (http://www.bertholdtypes.com/info/agreement.html)

Michael Rowley
09-30-2005, 08:46 AM
Marlene:

"bold, sans serif, hard-edged, strong, heavy, masculine"

If it's a heavyweight you want, what about Imago Bold? You can even make your ideal man a little portly in a few years' time by switching to Imago Extra Bold.

marlene
09-30-2005, 10:16 AM
Sometimes the customers do not know what they want until they see it.

Truer words were never written. <g>

mxh

marlene
09-30-2005, 10:25 AM
I did try Franklin Gothic, and liked the look of it, but decided against it because of the 1.

I have to include a floor plan, and I have to re-do all the booth numbers every year, and I prefer my 1 not to have a plinth. <g>

mxh

marlene
09-30-2005, 10:30 AM
LOL! The first Knockout I found was Elsner & Flake's.

I do like the look of the Hoefler & Frere-Jones Knockouts -- especially the Sumo versions -- but the client decided on the Helvetica Black (the first one I showed them).

Bureau Grotesk looked good, too, but not heavy enough.

mxh

marlene
09-30-2005, 10:37 AM
Check out Akzidenz Grotesk.

Nice, although I wish the site had full alphabets to look at for each font (or maybe I just couldn't find them). Client already decided on Helvetica Black, so that's a done deal.

Now, for the text font. I do like the Walbaum, but I think I have to stick with the typefaces I already have. Costs are spiraling out of the control on this project and I don't think I could have convinced the client to spring for an additional fonts.

I'll try Utopia (maybe they won't notice) and see if I can find something else in my existing font liberry that goes with the Helveticas.

mxh

marlene
09-30-2005, 10:42 AM
what about Imago Bold?

Aaargh! How could I have forgotten about Imago? That used to be one of my pet typefaces.

I think that would have worked really well, but the client has already picked the Helvetica and I'm not sure I want to rock the boat.

Especially since the boat is unstable and could capsize any minute.

mxh

ktinkel
09-30-2005, 11:44 AM
I'd be more inclined to Storm's Walbaum (http://www.stormtype.com/walbaum.html). Beautifully done, OpenType with broad language support, and a less restrictive EULALooks nice — I had not seen Storm’s Walbaum. (Tsk). There are Walbaums and then there are Walbaums, of course. Will have to get a good specimen and compare his with others.

As for EULAs, yes, of course Storm’s would be less restrictive than Berthold’s. Most would be.

Thanks.

ktinkel
09-30-2005, 11:56 AM
Now, for the text font. I do like the Walbaum, but I think I have to stick with the typefaces I already have. You probably have a copy of Century Schoolbook — that was the popular sidekick for Helvetica in the 1960s. They do work together, and old codgers like me will smile to see them!

You could also look at Bitstream Carmina. I cannot suggest that it has any special harmony with Helvetica, but it might provide graceful and lively contrast. And it is under-used as well as beautiful. (By Mrs. Zapf, btw.) You should have it in your Bitstream collection (it was on the 500 Font CD).

Michael Rowley
09-30-2005, 12:17 PM
Marlene:

That used to be one of my pet typefaces

It's certainly well muscled! I bought the set after being advised by someone here, who recommended it for use with Utopia.

Helvetica (Neue) Black is all right too, and if you think that the man should lose a few pounds, you could switch to the Heavy. The Light would do quite well for text: I've seen quite a lot of it in use.

marlene
09-30-2005, 01:26 PM
I do have Bitstream's Century Schoolbook, as well as their Carmina. I had looked at Carmina and dismissed it as too stylish for this project, but the Century might work. (It always makes me think of Dick and Jane!)

I also have a Monotype Century Schoolbook, but it's TrueType, which I only use if it's unavoidable.

I'm also fond of Century Expanded (I've got the Bitstream), but I think the italic is too frilly for this piece.

mxh

marlene
09-30-2005, 01:28 PM
It's certainly well muscled! I bought the set after being advised by someone here, who recommended it for use with Utopia.

Yes, I've often used Imago with Utopia.

Helvetica (Neue) Black is all right too, and if you think that the man should lose a few pounds, you could switch to the Heavy.

Nah, we want him supersized for this project!

mxh

Norman Hathaway
10-06-2005, 08:56 PM
i'd use helvetica for text. why add something else to the soup?
try using light with the heavier face.

btw- my favorite all-time cut of helvetica is made by URW
too bad the spoil sports at linotype made them withdraw it

it is SO superior to the lino version

i find walbaum to german grandma style for my liking
century etc. are also very 50s. perhaps too outdated now, unless you're intentionally trying for a retro or dick and jane look-

Michael Rowley
10-07-2005, 08:33 AM
Norman:

my favorite all-time cut of helvetica is made by URW

Try Nimbus Sans from URW++!

Norman Hathaway
10-07-2005, 12:03 PM
i do!
i love it.
i like all the urw 'us' faces.
i use Giltus as well.
but are they all still for sale?

ktinkel
10-07-2005, 12:55 PM
i like all the urw 'us' faces.
i use Giltus as well. but are they all still for sale?Not under the names that play off the Monotype trademarks: Bemtus, Giltus, Roctus, etc., that were used in the first URW CD.

But I believe the fonts themselves are available, though under different names — if not from URW++ (http://www.urwpp.de/english/home.html) then from Softmaker (which also acquired rights to the ATF library).

Quite a few (if not all of) the Softmaker fonts are sold at Sean Cavanaugh’s FontSite (http://www.fontsite.com/Pages/OrderForm/OrderForm1.html), which offers a PDF showing the fonts offered on a $40 500+-font CD, most licensed from URW.

Norman Hathaway
10-07-2005, 01:04 PM
Damn KT- are you on commision or something?

terrie
10-07-2005, 01:12 PM
>>kt: Quite a few (if not all of) the Softmaker fonts are sold at Sean Cavanaugh’s FontSite (http://www.fontsite.com/Pages/OrderForm/OrderForm1.html), which offers a PDF showing the fonts offered on a $40 500+-font CD, most licensed from URW.

I haven't fed my font appetite in way too long...'-}}

Just ordered this...thanks!

Terrie

ktinkel
10-07-2005, 01:12 PM
Damn KT- are you on commision or something?Hah! Nope.

Just try to double-check my faulty memory before advising how to find fonts or other items, and since I am at the sites, add the links. But we are equal-opportunity linkers here.

Feel free to ignore them! :-)

Michael Rowley
10-07-2005, 02:50 PM
Norman:

but are they all still for sale?

I don't know about all, but Nimbus Sans is (Copyright: Max Miedinger 2005!). It's described as 'similar to Helvetica', and bears a strong resemblance to his original design.