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View Full Version : INETPUB folks rock


Steve Rindsberg
09-12-2005, 07:47 PM
I just wanted to stick an oar in here and say that I thought from the start that mixing in INETPUB expats with the existing DTP refugees was a good idea.

I didn't know HOW good an idea until Kelvyn and Dave and some of the rest of you who I don't know yet started showing up and contributing.

This is GREAT. Thanks to all of you.

ElyseC
09-13-2005, 09:08 AM
Aren't they great? And I'm grateful these web pros have patience with the likes of me, someone who has been creating for the print world for 31 years, but is green as grass creating for the HTML world!

Daudio
09-13-2005, 10:17 AM
All,

Speaking of INETPUB expats, does anyone know why Lois isn't around here yet ??

Kelvyn
09-13-2005, 10:34 AM
does anyone know why Lois isn't around here yet ??

Lois was here. ISTR that she broke her laptop which will prevent access for a while.

ktinkel
09-13-2005, 11:07 AM
Speaking of INETPUB expats, does anyone know why Lois isn't around here yet ??Lois is here, but she was having computer problems combined with a boatload of work, last time she posted.

Sure hope her computer problems are not severe.

jgr
09-13-2005, 05:28 PM
I just wanted to stick an oar in here and say that I thought from the start that mixing in INETPUB expats with the existing DTP refugees was a good idea.It's very kind of you to say so. Kelvyn and Dennis and Dave and Richard and Patrick and so many others shared unstintingly in INETPUB and the warm reception we've all gotten here makes it a safe bet that that will continue for a long time. (Thank heavens. Somebody has got to be able to teach me CSS!)

Richard Waller
09-13-2005, 11:32 PM
*** Somebody has got to be able to teach me CSS!) ***

Why? Please don't tell me actually, but there are one or two traditionalists left . . .

jgr
09-14-2005, 05:09 AM
*** Somebody has got to be able to teach me CSS!) ***

Why? Please don't tell me actually, but there are one or two traditionalists left . . .ROFL!! The fact is, some things are vastly easier with CSS than with plain HTML. Think about it: do you really want all those <font> tags hanging around??? OTOH, there are things that are vastly harder with CSS -- such as columnar presentation, for which tables are just so much easier.

ktinkel
09-14-2005, 05:24 AM
OTOH, there are things that are vastly harder with CSS -- such as columnar presentation, for which tables are just so much easier.Aspects of columnar layouts are easier with tables than CSS (though I always struggled with dratted tables, myself).

Most appealing: the ability to control the depth (height), so that a vertical rule or color background will fill the space even if there there is insufficient content to force the issue. Tables definitely are easier for that.

But CSS columns are not that hard. I suspect the main problem for someone like you who knows how to make tables sing and dance is the unlearning process. CSS columns do call for a completely different mindset.

Steve Rindsberg
09-14-2005, 05:11 PM
Kind? Oh sure, maybe a little. Mostly just honest. ;-)

Between them, KT and Ian, you should be fine. If you're on Windows/PC, have a look at TopStyle. Very useful!

jgr
09-14-2005, 07:29 PM
But CSS columns are not that hard.YOU LIE!!! (Okay, so you fib a little.) They are the hardest #$%#$ thing I have ever tried to do online.

jgr
09-14-2005, 07:30 PM
If you're on Windows/PC, have a look at TopStyle. Very useful!It isn't the tools as much as it is the concepts. Kathleen and others have been trying to help me understand -- truly conceptually understand -- CSS columns and layout issues. Fact is, I can picture what I want, and know, immediately, how to achieve it in HTML. In CSS, I whimper.

Daudio
09-14-2005, 09:08 PM
Judy.

They are the hardest #$%#$ thing I have ever tried to do online.

Check out these Max Design tutorials: http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/page_layouts/index.cfm (when you have a little time).
Thats where I got my start. Of course I had to implement something and work out some bugs, to really get the ideas from my eyes to my fingers :)

ktinkel
09-15-2005, 06:03 AM
YOU LIE!!! (Okay, so you fib a little.) They are the hardest #$%#$ thing I have ever tried to do online.All I can say is you should have been around when I was trying to grapple with tables! Whenever I see you (or anyone) talk about how easy they are, I just shake my head.

Though, actually, now that I have learned to live without them, I did use a couple of tables recently and they worked fine. Maybe I just had to get to where I didn’t really need them — then they played nice!

jgr
09-15-2005, 06:20 AM
Check out these Max Design tutorials: http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/page_layouts/index.cfm (when you have a little time).
Thats where I got my start. Of course I had to implement something and work out some bugs, to really get the ideas from my eyes to my fingers :)Oooh... great links, Dave, thanks. I'll see if I can work them through so I can understand 'em.

jgr
09-15-2005, 06:21 AM
now that I have learned to live without them, I did use a couple of tables recently and they worked fine. Maybe I just had to get to where I didn’t really need them — then they played nice!ROFL!!! Ain't that the way it always works...!

ktinkel
09-15-2005, 12:42 PM
In CSS, I whimper.I couldn’t not tell you this: CSS had me whimpering today. I was trying to set up four columns on a page: 1 very narrow, two medium, and one in-between. Could not get the percentages right, and it was driving me nuts.

It was so bad that I decided to give up and use tables, only that too failed me.

Finally I went back to CSS but with only three columns. Phooey.

jgr
09-15-2005, 02:57 PM
I couldn’t not tell you this: CSS had me whimpering today. ROFL!!! It's nice to know I'm not alone!

ktinkel
09-15-2005, 04:54 PM
ROFL!!! It's nice to know I'm not alone!Yeah, but I hasten to add that with me it’s not chronic! <g>

Steve Rindsberg
09-16-2005, 08:15 AM
I hear ya. But TopStyle lets you test things far more easily than would be possible otherwise. You can see the effect very quickly and directly. Well worth trying the demo out.

BTW, I was around when KT started to grapple with columns in CSS ... heh. No matter what she may tell you, it took a village. She doesn't give up easy, though.

ktinkel
09-16-2005, 10:05 AM
BTW, I was around when KT started to grapple with columns in CSS ... heh. No matter what she may tell you, it took a village. She doesn't give up easy, though.Oh, I am the first to concede that it took a village — well, a forum or two! Including Ian, the taskmaster extraordinaire!

jgr
09-16-2005, 01:15 PM
I hear ya. But TopStyle lets you test things far more easily than would be possible otherwise. You can see the effect very quickly and directly. Well worth trying the demo out.I have TopStyle lite; it's built into my Homesite.

BTW, I was around when KT started to grapple with columns in CSS ... heh. No matter what she may tell you, it took a village. She doesn't give up easy, though.I'm at least as stubborn as she is... and with luck the village hasn't lost its patience with educating us old farts...

Kelvyn
09-16-2005, 02:35 PM
and with luck the village hasn't lost its patience with educating us old farts...

You said that???? Well I'm not a village but this page (http://glish.com/css/7.asp) gives a simple example of a 3 column CSS layout - and how to do it. In fact this site (http://glish.com/css/) is an excellent layout resource.

ktinkel
09-16-2005, 04:14 PM
You said that???? Well I'm not a village but this page (http://glish.com/css/7.asp) gives a simple example of a 3 column CSS layout - and how to do it. In fact this site (http://glish.com/css/) is an excellent layout resource.I have used both of those resources. They rely on position: absolute and that was often difficult to implement for various reasons (possibly including my incompetence).

What I found difficult is to set up CSS “columns” using float and clear, and to have four of them, especially as I want to have flexing pages.

Or am I barking up the wrong tree(s)?

Ian Petersen
09-16-2005, 09:49 PM
is to set up CSS “columns” using float and clear, and to have four of themI think I've seen similar layouts done with a DIV containing four DIVs, all of them floated and widths specified in percentages. I can't say I've tried it though. I generally find flexible layouts impractical to implement even though they're theoretically more elegant.

Ian Petersen
09-16-2005, 10:04 PM
I have TopStyle lite; it's built into my Homesite.The full version is a very different beast. Much more useful and powerful. It has a good HTML editor built in, for one thing, so you can do all your development in one app. I used to be a big fan of Homesite (still am), but I have rarely used it since getting Topstyle. And TS is obviously invaluable when learning and debugging CSS. My only gripe with it is that it doesn't do UTF-8 (Unicode) text.

Kelvyn
09-17-2005, 02:30 AM
What I found difficult is to set up CSS “columns” using float and clear, and to have four of them, especially as I want to have flexing pages.

Or am I barking up the wrong tree(s)?

No, of course not. We all have our preferred way of setting up pages. If you don't need full flexing you can still use absolute for left and right columns and just use flexible for the centre part(s). Sincle left & right columns are usually used for menu, ads or less important items, they are fine held in a fixed column. Most of my clients still seem to prefer fixed width, though.....

ktinkel
09-17-2005, 05:35 AM
No, of course not. We all have our preferred way of setting up pages. If you don't need full flexing you can still use absolute for left and right columns and just use flexible for the centre part(s). Sincle left & right columns are usually used for menu, ads or less important items, they are fine held in a fixed column. Most of my clients still seem to prefer fixed width, though.....Have to confess that when I have pixels and percentages my head swims. So I take the coward’s way out, and use % for all, even though it makes a mess sometimes.

In fact, this discussion inspires me. I will master this! Thanks, coach! <g>

jgr
09-17-2005, 11:05 AM
Yeah, but I hasten to add that with me it’s not chronic! <g>With me, everything is chronic...

jgr
09-17-2005, 11:07 AM
this page (http://glish.com/css/7.asp) gives a simple example of a 3 column CSS layout - and how to do it. In fact this site (http://glish.com/css/) is an excellent layout resource.Bookmarked, and thanks!

jgr
09-17-2005, 11:08 AM
The full version is a very different beast. Much more useful and powerful. It has a good HTML editor built in, for one thing, so you can do all your development in one app.I'll take a look at it, then, Ian. Thanks.

ktinkel
09-17-2005, 12:32 PM
The full version is a very different beast. Much more useful and powerful. It has a good HTML editor built in, for one thing, so you can do all your development in one app. I used to be a big fan of Homesite (still am), but I have rarely used it since getting Topstyle. And TS is obviously invaluable when learning and debugging CSS. My only gripe with it is that it doesn't do UTF-8 (Unicode) text.I have heard TopStyle compared favorably to Mac editor BBEdit.

Ian Petersen
09-17-2005, 09:38 PM
BBEdit is what I'd call a programmer's text editor with an emphasis on HTML, isn't it? More like UltraEdit or TextPad perhaps. However, I've only used the light version of BBBEdit. TopStyle is more a full-blown development environment for CSS (primarily) and HTML. As you can see in the screenshots (http://www.bradsoft.com/topstyle/screenshots/index.asp) there's a lot more to Topstyle than just a text editor. In fact you can work in TS almost without touching the text editor part. That said, I do use it mostly as a text editor and actually rarely use all the widgets.

ktinkel
09-18-2005, 05:34 AM
BBEdit is what I'd call a programmer's text editor with an emphasis on HTML, isn't it? More like UltraEdit or TextPad perhaps. However, I've only used the light version of BBBEdit. TopStyle is more a full-blown development environment for CSS (primarily) and HTML.That is more WYSIWYG than BBEdit, but BBEdit light (it now has another name, btw) is not much like the real thing.

I don’t use all its bells and whistles. You can enter CSS by selecting from a list, for example, but I usually just type them in. Old habits, from before it had all those menus and palettes.

If it were available for the Mac, I might like TopStyle. OTOH, I have tried a bunch of different HTML/CSS editors, and haven’t found any of them to be more useful than BBEdit — more visual, yes; but not more useful. But one or another of those might be more like TopStyle.